MAgic Items as Loot and Effect on Player Wealth

[Hypersmurf]

Re: Re: Re: MAgic Items as Loot and Effect on Player Wealth

You are wrong because the rule for splitting treasure in the DMG (or PHB) states that a character receives 1/2 value for selling magic items and that a character will get credit for 1/2 value when computing what equatible amount of gold the character has received.

Well, that's just a suggested policy. Different parties have different ways of dividing treasure.

-Hyp.

 

[Petrosian]

As for how the PCS count their division of treasure, thats up to them. I have seen it done many ways and frankly, none of it matters a whit. However the party works it out is fine for them.

As for calculating PC wealth to see if you are above or below the expected norm. you use FULL value.

If you look as an example to the NPCs listed they use the stanard wealth and also even assume a discount to 70% if the caster can make it himself. Nothing near the 50% you mention.

In my game they give the items to those who can use them and anything thats actually sold is split evenly as loot. i have yet to see them calculating shares including item costs. Their logic, which seems to be working is if an item is in the hands oif one who can use it and is used it helps everyone.

 

[SpikeyFreak]

Um, you're the DM?

You have COMPLETE control over what the party has.

They have too much loot at 20th level, 1 Mordies Disjunction and they have less loot.

Player wealth is easily easily fixable. If they have too much, take some away.

--Thief Spikey

 

[nwn_deadman]

revamp

Here is a case in point.

In a large campaign where there are numerous DM's and hundreds of players (Neverwinter Nights, or Living City or others) there has to be a standard way to determine party loot and its effect on player wealth.

Lets take what the rules say.

When a player receives a magic item as a share of loot, the player will treat the items value as 1/2 its market value (the only exception is when another players wishes to bid on the item)

Now, take that 1/2 valuation and add it to the player’s accumulated wealth.

For instance, a cloak of resistance +1 is worth 1000 gp market value, but he player will only have to count this as a 500 gp share of the loot. The party has 6 players and 3000 gp to split between them.

Each of the players will receive a 500 gp value. Once the players have divided up the loot the gold/items that they have now are considered accumulated wealth.

Some of the people in here seem to think that the person that has the cloak now has amassed more wealth then the other characters, but has he really?

Did they not each had an EQUAL amount of loot, remember?

Since they did in fact receive an EQUAL amount of loot, they are all now worth 500 gp.

You cannot say that now that we are looking at each player’s possessions in terms of overall wealth that the items that they have are now worth a different amount!

If you were to account for each item that a character has in double entry accounting you would have some explaining to do when you said that the player with the cloak now has 1000 gp wealth. Just a second ago at the table where the loot was divided the player with the cloak just walked away with a 500 gp value. Where is the other 500 gp coming from?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Re: revamp

Some of the people in here seem to think that the person that has the cloak now has amassed more wealth then the other characters, but has he really?

If he can get lots of use out of the item? Sure. It's a 1000gp magic item.

If it's the sixth cloak he's accumulated? Not really, 'cos he'll probably sell it for 500gp.

A magic item being used is worth more to the character than a magic item being sold.

-Hyp.

 

[Starfox]

Re: revamp

When a player receives a magic item as a share of loot, the player will treat the items value as 1/2 its market value.

Now, take that 1/2 valuation and add it to the player’s accumulated wealth.

For instance, a cloak of resistance +1 is worth 1000 gp market value, but he player will only have to count this as a 500 gp share of the loot. The party has 6 players and 3000 gp to split between them.

Each of the players will receive a 500 gp value. Once the players have divided up the loot the gold/items that they have now are considered accumulated wealth.

Some of the people in here seem to think that the person that has the cloak now has amassed more wealth then the other characters, but has he really?

Yes, he has. Because, when another character spends his gold to aquire that same coak, he must spend 1000 gp, a net loss of 500 gp. So the character that got the cloak ends up with no extra gold and the cloak, while the character that got the cloak off the "open market" got his cloak, but lost 500 gold.

But in many campaigns, basic items like a Claok of Resistance is never bought; you find enough of them to go around. Hence, everyone gets a 50% discount. During play, and on common stuff found in many hoards.

I, for one, would never purchase most charges items at full price. After all, a permanent item can be sold for a refound, but a wand or potion is used up. But that's me.

But this does not mean that you normally get such a discount when creating your character, as other people here have pointed out. An inexperienced DM might give such a discount, but that only skeweres the relationship between the price of magical and magical items; it is the same thing as giving extra money, then saying that non-magic items bought before play cost extra. Because non-magical items are such a small part of your budget, it's better to simpy give more money straight off in this case.

In a mega-campaign such as Neverwinther Nights, I'd suggest that some player set us an alternate magic shop, with less than the 100% profit margin enjoyed by the NPC shopkeepers. Of course, he ight find that the HUGE stock of magic items he needs and the business hours he must keep doesn't make it worthwhile. But that's a question of supply and demand, not character generation.

 

[Petrosian]

Re: revamp

[/B][/QUOTE]

Here is a case in point.

In a large campaign where there are numerous DM's and hundreds of players (Neverwinter Nights, or Living City or others) there has to be a standard way to determine party loot and its effect on player wealth.

Without arguing the presumption, this would indeed be a CAMPAIGN rule.

You cannot say that now that we are looking at each player’s possessions in terms of overall wealth that the items that they have are now worth a different amount!

I am heainr two different things being talked about... ONE is dividing loot. The other is calculating a characters WEALTH for either a campaign specific reason or for comparison to the average ealth table.

AFAIK, when calculating wealth for PC BALANCE issues all magic items are figured at their WHOLE value (adjusting for charges where apropos.) In some cases a 30% discount applies to items made by the character.

FOR normal campaigns (not with hundreds of players and DMs)

AFAIK, whether the PCs use half shares or full shares for magic items in DIVIDING LOOT or whether they use any other means is up to them.

I do know from experience that results with the dividing loot by counting magic items against the share of the money doen't work well all that often. Results such as having 5 characters, about 5k in monies/loot, a +2 sword and some scrolls to be divided means the fighter in order to "buy" the sword to use needs to chip in sp,e exorbitant amount of cash which he may or may not have, Yo "properly" divide this loot the sword must be sold and split. Since the proceeds wont be enough to buy a +2 sword, the net result is a party with evenly split gold and maybe a +1 weapon instead of a +2 weapon. In the long run, trading in items of the higher power for divisible cash REDUCES the party's power and net wealth.

Again, IMX.

I have seen parties do this. Have seen my own party sell off +2 weapons because "they are not the right kind" and felt absolutely no sympathy when a month later their +1 weapons had problems with +2/ DR.

 

[Rel]

I think the comparison nwn_deadman is making is apples and oranges. In my opinion, the only way to get the effect he seems to want is to take the character wealth level in question, double it and generate random magic items totalling that amount. That would represent the somewhat random nature of the items that characters gain over the levels.

Then, he could travel the land seeking markets for the items he doesn't want to keep. The travel expenses will probably further eat into the 50% value that he gets to retain from the sale of those items. He may have to travel even further to use that gold to purchase items that he really wants.

This is all much more realistic (assuming that there isn't a nearby mega-city where all items can be bought and sold as per the book) but more of a hassle.

That is why the DMG offers the simple rules that it does. If you wish for something more complex, go for it.

 

[Oracular Vision]

Ha! My players have a multi-page spreadsheet and an earned value summary, allowing them to buy, in sequence of fair purchasing power earned, party treasure. Somewhere along the line, the unbought items will be sold for half or so. They argued and used several different systems before developing this one (as DM I never tell them how to distribute party treasure. The players are having too much fun figuring it out for themselves...)

As to correct levels of wealth, I don't care what's in the DMG or PHB, you as DM have to see the effects of magic items on combat and can then judge what new things they should have available. I

I use a simple rule called the "Whine Rule." If the characters still think they need a little more treasure, then they have enough. Parties where everyone has all magic items is probably going too far, especially at low levels. At about average 8th level, my group all have one magic weapon, and two or three magic doo-dads. There are a couple of +2 weapons. That's it. They think they should have more, but are not upset about it, so I feel I am right on target as per my rule above...

A central problem, left unaddressed here so far, is that giving your party magic items as loot makes them more powerful and increases their effective party level. You will also have to supply some bad guys with more powerful magic to fight them, and this will also inevitably end up as party treasure too.

 

[nwn_deadman]

Re: Re: revamp



I am heainr two different things being talked about... ONE is dividing loot. The other is calculating a characters WEALTH for either a campaign specific reason or for comparison to the average ealth table.

AFAIK, when calculating wealth for PC BALANCE issues all magic items are figured at their WHOLE value (adjusting for charges where apropos.) In some cases a 30% discount applies to items made by the character.

FOR normal campaigns (not with hundreds of players and DMs)

AFAIK, whether the PCs use half shares or full shares for magic items in DIVIDING LOOT or whether they use any other means is up to them.

I do know from experience that results with the dividing loot by counting magic items against the share of the money doen't work well all that often. Results such as having 5 characters, about 5k in monies/loot, a +2 sword and some scrolls to be divided means the fighter in order to "buy" the sword to use needs to chip in sp,e exorbitant amount of cash which he may or may not have, Yo "properly" divide this loot the sword must be sold and split. Since the proceeds wont be enough to buy a +2 sword, the net result is a party with evenly split gold and maybe a +1 weapon instead of a +2 weapon. In the long run, trading in items of the higher power for divisible cash REDUCES the party's power and net wealth.

Again, IMX.

I have seen parties do this. Have seen my own party sell off +2 weapons because "they are not the right kind" and felt absolutely no sympathy when a month later their +1 weapons had problems with +2/ DR. [/B][/QUOTE]

Point of the rule in the DMG or PHB that stats how to determine a players wealth...