Magic items idea

[luke_twigger]

What if some/most/all magic items had negative effects aswell as positive ones? I'm thinking mainly in terms of items with a numerical bonus of some kind e.g. Amulet of Natural Armour, Cloak of Resistance, etc.

At the moment there's very little decision making required. If you get an Amulet of Natural Armour then you're very likely to wear it. The only common reason not to would be that you already have a better Amulet of some kind.

But for example, imagine a Tortoise Amulet, which gave +3 AC and -5' movement. This would lead to much more interesting decisions. Is the armour benefit worth the speed loss? Different characters could value the item very differently e.g. dwarf in platemail vs spring attack monk. In fact different players could value the item very differently e.g. one might say that a spring attack monk would hate to lose any speed whatsoever, another might argue that a high level monk has "spare" movement and the trade for the extra AC would be worth it.

Other ideas I had would be a family of items that did +2 Will, -1 Ref and various other combinations. Or a "reckless" sword with +2 to hit and damage but -2AC. Has anybody got any good ideas for similar items? Preferably ones with a tension between a worthwhile bonus and a relevant penalty to make it less of an automatic decision e.g. a ring which granted +5 Tumble and -10 Craft (Woodworking) would be a no-brainer.

Also, as the penalty would be found by the Identify spell and preferably incorporated in the flavour of the item (like the Tortoise Amulet increasing armour and decreasing speed) I wouldn't class these as cursed items.

Would this make the game more interesting? At present a party finds a +1 Ring of Protection and really the only question is which PC writes +1AC on their character sheet.

BTW I have no idea how to balance items like this in terms of GP pricing.

 

[Rodrigo Istalindir]

I've always liked things like that. I prefer 'choices' to 'options', but that's just me. As for pricing, I would give minor cost breaks (if any), especially for player-crafted stuff. Too easy to get all munchkiny with it.

 

[Wystan]

The Le games should be putting out a PDF called 17 Flawed Magic Items soon. (I hope)...


Wystan

 

[Kragar00]

I love things like that... In fact, I try not to give out +1 swords, but rather, +1, +3 vs. lizards and the like... A simple bonus lacks any kind of flair in my opinion...
Coupling bonuses with penalites helps to give the item a personality and a feel, so long as the penalties aren't too severe and they make sense...
Anything to severe and it becomes cursed (though I seem to remember an old Dragon magazine talking about uses for cursed magical items)...

 

[ThirdWizard]

Before the crash I had a House Rules thread with some of my creations. I'm very much in favor of this kind of thing. For one it allows me to give the PCs more poweful items at a cost, and secondly it gives the items some built in personality. I like the item to have some kind of theme with it. So an item that gives +1 to spell DCs gives a -1 to all saves or an item that gives 5 cold resist will give a penalty to saves vs. fire. I also like bonuses that have drawbacks. Everyone (including the weilder) nearby is affected by the item is a good one.

 

[Land Outcast]

Sounds nice thirdwizard, have them around?

 

[der_kluge]

The only real flaw with this idea is that wizards will create magic items that add penalties to things that aren't important, if the cost is reduced.

But, if you think about it, adding in an additional effect - whether it's positive or negative, is going to make the item cost more.

I mean, which should cost more:

A +1 sword
or
A +1 sword that incurs -2 to will saves on its wearer.

The second item will cost more. Why? Because the creator had to go out of his way to add in a secondary effect - a stupid one at that.


If, according to the rules for such things, the cost is reduced for negative effects, then wizards will selectively weigh the pros and cons for an optimized price.

I mean, how many wizards would really be too concerned about using a staff of power if it incurred a -2 to strength? It probably wouldn't be a big factor for most wizards. Most fighters would gladly wield a +3 sword if it incurred a -2 to their charisma score.


That said, I like the idea of being able to do this. And there are rules for doing it in the Artificer's Handbook (a book I wrote) - and yes, the costs are reduced. But I think GMs need to give special consideration before allowing it willy nilly.

My preference for such things is to have the negatives just appear as a result of instability. That is, when a wizard makes an item, he might cut corners in the process - inferior materials, hastened construction, etc. Go to too many extremes, and the item could be unstable. The result? - Items with quirks, negative (and positive) effects, or even cursed items or artifacts (in the most extreme cases). This makes it outside the control of the creator.

And yes, there are rules for Item Instability in the Artificer's Handbook as well.

 

[Odhanan]

The second item will cost more. Why? Because the creator had to go out of his way to add in a secondary effect - a stupid one at that.

I agree that's the logic of the rules, but that's not the only way to think about it. We could build some kind of system that would give some negative side effects to items while making them cheaper. That could be explained simply by the way a wizard created the item, concentrating on its main ability while not caring to do all the verifications, or to ward all possible side effects, hence the maluses.

For instance, a weapon that would give +2d6 fire damage, and would damage its wearer as well as the opponent in case of a critical hit. There would be a relation between main and side effects. That wouldn't be the most convenient (-10 to Appraise, anyone? ), but the most logical ones .

 

[luke_twigger]

The only real flaw with this idea is that wizards will create magic items that add penalties to things that aren't important, if the cost is reduced.

...

I mean, how many wizards would really be too concerned about using a staff of power if it incurred a -2 to strength? It probably wouldn't be a big factor for most wizards. Most fighters would gladly wield a +3 sword if it incurred a -2 to their charisma score.

That's why I suggested there ought to be a tension between a worthwhile bonus and a *relevant* penalty.

If you allow PC item-crafters to select from a menu of bonuses and penalties of course that is going to lead to some minimising of the drawbacks just like selecting Traits and Flaws in GURPS or whatever.

Instead of a nuts and bolts approach, I'd only provide complete items along the lines of the Breastplate of Command which simultaneously provides a Charisma bonus and a Hiding penalty.

 

[Land Outcast]

Frozenstone Crown (Crown/Helmet): 1/day - ice to stone; CL 10; +4 on Will Saves, -2 Dex.

Frozen Wastes Boots (Boots): The user's touch kills all normal plant life, can be used to make touch attacks (at a -4) that deal 5d6 damage against creatures with the plant subtype.

Glacial Mirror (+3 Heavy Shield): Works as spell turning against fire effects for 1d4+3 levels per day, can only be removed through two full-round actions.

Ice Hide (Cloak or Robe): +3 to all saves, -6 on saves vs. Fire effects

Unforgiving Winds (Longbow): +1 Composite longbow [+3], -6 penalty to hit except a full-round action is devoted to firing one arrow. Whenever a creature is hit, roll in the table below to determine an additional effect:
_d6___Effect
1-3___+2d4 cold damage
_4____-5ft cold penalty to all speeds (lasts 1d4+1 rounds)
_5____-2 cold penalty to Dex (lasts 1d4+1 rounds)
_6____-2 cold penalty to AC and Attacks (lasts 1d4+1 rounds)

Rimeheart (Amulet): +4 to natural AC, option to create a wall of ice of 10-ft radius around you when activated. Creatures and objects within 20ft of you receive 1d6 cold damage per round, those within 40ft receive 1d4 cold damage per round. Can be used for up to 6 rounds per day, the rounds need not to be continuous.

Walrus' Pride (Longsword): A +1 weapon unless it is activated through command word, gaining an additional: +2 to hit, +4 to damage, whenever you drop an enemy you must immediately make a partial charge against the nearest creature, if there are no creatures at range to make such an attack ignore this effect.