Magic items that grant the use of feats

[Jesus_marley]

My personal take on this is that if a person lost an item that granted a prereq feat (Mobility for example), I would rule that any feats that used that as a prerequisite would not be lost per se, just unusable until such time as the prereq feat was re-acquired either through level gain or a feat granting item.

This way, the character is not ruined yet it also shows the pain of relying too much on a magic enhancement.

 

[Mistwell]

A feat you gain through experience is not the same thing as a feat you gain from magic. One includes knowledge you have, which can be improved on to obtain another feat in a feat chain (or access to a prestige class that relies on those abilities you have learned). The other is not necessarily knowledge you have, just a magical ability (which can be surpressed in an anti-magic field, temporarily dispelled, etc..). I would not allow a feat gained from a magic item to count towards a feat prerequisite, nor a prestige class, since both depend on you actually having the knowledge of how the feat is done through your own abilities, as opposed to using a magic item to do it for you.

 

[Jdvn1]

Should a feat that has a stat prereq be worth the same? The equation given doesn't account for that. What if the stat prereq is really high?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

My personal take on this is that if a person lost an item that granted a prereq feat (Mobility for example), I would rule that any feats that used that as a prerequisite would not be lost per se, just unusable until such time as the prereq feat was re-acquired either through level gain or a feat granting item.

This way, the character is not ruined yet it also shows the pain of relying too much on a magic enhancement.

Well, that's my take, too. Nothing is lost, just unusable for the time (or a ray of enfeeblement would ruin your power attack feat chain) but as long as you don't get the item pack or replace it, you lose quite a lot of stuff here (maybe even the ability to advance in a PrC)

 

[Amaroq]

The debate goes away entirely if you reword the item/feat relationship subtly.

"This item grants the weilder a magical effect which has the same benefits as the feat [such-and-such]..."

The item, then, explicitly doesn't grant the FEAT for any other purposes (feat chain progression, PrC qualification, etc.) while still granting the mechanical benefits of the feat.

 

[Praeden]

Well, that's my take, too. Nothing is lost, just unusable for the time (or a ray of enfeeblement would ruin your power attack feat chain) but as long as you don't get the item pack or replace it, you lose quite a lot of stuff here (maybe even the ability to advance in a PrC)

Okay, here's a similar situation. A familiar grants the Alertness feat when within 5'. Could you keep your familiar close by at all times (perhaps in a small cage on your belt) and then enter a prestige class like the 3.0 Alienist, which requires Alertness as a pre-req? If so, what happens if the familiar dies, or is sent off on a scouting mission. Do you lose PrC abilities while it is away? Or do you only need to meet the pre-reqs for the 'instant' that you acquire the PrC?

 

[Gez]

I wouldn't let an item help to qualify for requirements (unless using the test-based requirements variant from UA).

Likewise, I disallowed the summon familiar ability to replace a requirement of Alertness (besides, my reasonning is that the familiar is actually constantly taking 10 on his aid another action to aid your spot and listen checks).

 

[The_Universe]

I let them count, but as Kae'yoss, note that if the item is lost, any dependent abilities are also inaccessible until the item (or an identical one) is returned to the character's possession.

 

[Lord Morte]

A Thought...

I'm with Kae'yoss. Feats gain by magic count as prereqs but you loses access to anything you gain if you lose the item.

It means you can do this: To enter the Order of Powerful and Wise Archmage-types, you must gain their approval. They then grant/sell you a magic item, say a staff, that grants you the benefit of a Spell Focus feat. You then use that feat for one of the prereqs on the Archmage PrC and advance as one. If anything ever happens to the staff, such as a powerful enemy shatters or disintergrates it or the Order decides you should be ejected, you effectively lose a chunk of your power.

Note to self: Must watch Return of the King extended again...

And what about those PrCs that are item focused, such as the Kensai or Anointed Knight. Admittedly there isn't many of them, but they're as vunerable to item of power theft as any character making prereqs via an item.

 

[Lord Pendragon]

You then use that feat for one of the prereqs on the Archmage PrC and advance as one. If anything ever happens to the staff, such as a powerful enemy shatters or disintergrates it or the Order decides you should be ejected, you effectively lose a chunk of your power.

As was already pointed out, this penalty for using an item to gain a prereq is illusory. If the DM actually destroys it, the player cries "foul" loudly enough that most DMs will actually go out of their way not to destroy it. So the key item is practically invulnerable.

I suppose that some DMs may have the steely resolve to indescriminately apply the item damage rules, and indescriminately use logical enemy tactics that may target a PC's "feat item" for Sunder attempts, Disintegration, etc. But I doubt it's a majority.

Better to simply not allow it to begin with.