Magic Jar questions ...

[fba827]

I can easily see this being as distracting as the polymorph questions since this is pretty much a "reverse polymorph" on some levels .. but, here goes ...

I am designing a plot where the spell magic jar is a main focus of the plot.

Having said that, I wanted to see if anyone out there could help me clarify a couple things about the spell.

For the sake of clarity in this discussion, the caster will be referred to as "Caster" and the body being taken over will be called "Target."

From my understanding of the spell description, the resulting mixture (body of target, mind of caster) will have the following ...

(Anything underlined if explicitly defined in the spell description so not questioning those items; simply including them here for completeness)

Class/Levels: Caster
Strength: Target
Dexterity: Target
Constitution: Target
Intelligence: Caster
Wisdom: Caster
Charisma: Caster
Hit Points: Target
Base Attack Bonus: Caster
Base Saves: Caster
Alignment: Caster

Mental Abilities: Caster -- but what does "mental abilities" include?

Base Skill Ranks: ???
I could see this being a mixture of Either: Caster for skills based on mental abilities since they represent learned things (thus mental) and Target for skills based on physical abilities since ranks in physical skills could be training the muscles to be able to do the item (thus physical). But I don't like that answer as there should be a blanket case answer... so I'm inclined to say "Caster" on this one...

Feats: ???
Much like the topic of base skill ranks, I could see this being a mixture. A small handful of feats are described as physical things, such as Toughness, thus making those be of the Target. But the number of those feats is few and the rest could be easily described as learned things. So I'm inclined to say "Caster" for all Feats as well.

Of course, if feats are defined as extraordinary abilities, then that in itself eliminates this section of the topic since extraordinary abilities have their own heading.

Extraordinary abilities: ???
The spell's description specifically says "you can not choose to activate the body's extraordinary abilities" -- so, that leaves us with some possibilities...

a) Caster. But I don't believe that to be the case since I tend to associate extraordinary abilities with the physical bodies own capabilities.

b) Target. But with the qualifier of "only those that are continuous/automatically in effect" such as cold resistance or something. But not things that are activated by the body on command... that is what the text seems to more likely imply anyway. (some example extraordinary abilities... Rage, Fast Movement, Purity of Body, Monk AC bonus, Evasion, Flurry of Blows, Still Mind, Slow Fall, etc... )

c) Neither.

Supernatural Abilities: ???
Just as with extraordinary abilities, the spell's description specifically says "you can not choose to activate the body's supernatural abilities" -- so, that leaves us with the same possibilities ...

a) Caster.

b) Target. But with the qualifier of "only those that are continuous/automatically in effect" ... and the examples I can spot off the cuff are just leaving me even more curious as to which way this would be ... Turn undead, Lay on Hands, Aura of Courage.

c) Neither.

Spell & Spell-like Abilities: ???
The spell specifically states, "The creature's spells and spell-like abilities do not stay with the body."

I am inclined to say that this one is Caster. Plain and simple... it is def. not Target based on the wording so if it isn't Caster, then Neither is the only other option.

Movement Rate: ???
With little doubt in my mind, this one is Target.

Languages: ???
With little doubt in my mind, this one is Caster.

Racial Traits: ???

Note: This gets tricky because some racial traits are inherent to the race (racial bonus to various skills, types of vision, etc.) while others are inherent to the racial culture/upbringing (bonus languages, bonus to attack certain creatures).

Def. not Caster (since it is not his body). So that leaves either:

a) Target

b) Target with qualifier (using the statement about extraordinary abilities to apply to racial abilities) so only things that are continuously in effect... racial bonus to skills, types of vision , etc. in fact, looking at the note written above, I'd go so far as to say that racial abilities inherent to the race are retained while those inherent to the racial culture are not... (but that still remains a bit ambiguous).

c) Neither.

Special Qualities: and Special Attacks:
These are defined as supernatural, extraordinary, or spell-like so no need to have them as their own discussion.

Memories:
While it is apparent that it is the caster that will remember what is done in the target's body, what does the Target remember while trapped in the magic jar, if anything?


Thoughts or comments on any parts mentioned above, anyone?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I generally agree with your assessments.

The tricky one is Ex and Su abilities. Things like movement rate, DR, energy resistance would be Target. Things that are like class abilities, e.g. Evasion, Rage, should be Caster. I would be inclined to say neither for SR.

Racial abilities are a mixed bag, too. Low-light vision would obviously be Target. Stonecunning would be caster. Gnome spell-like abilities would be neither.

We used to play with overly generous Magic Jar rules in 1e/2e to devastating effects against PCs. When we went up against Magic Jar in 3.0 it was not really that bad because of the limits of a wizard. If the BBEG possessed a fighter he was a near helpless bucket of HPs: no weapon proficiencies, no BAB, no armor proficiency, big spell failure %, no spell pouch. He only caused problems when the party wizard failed the save against Magic Jar, but a naked lone wizard is nearly helpless against 6 grappling heroes. The BBEG could cast a few spells but he had no idea what equipment the PC wizard had and no time to investigate.

 

[green slime]

I disagree. Having possessed a fighter, the options available are quite generous:

He commits suicide. The caster's soul is then sent back to the receptacle, and can attempt to possess another.

It must be quite disheartening to see your Fighter companion tear off his helmet and place his head within the mouth of the red dragon, or throw himself into a pool of acid, or down a well. Or stab his throat with his own blade.

 

[fba827]

One bump in case any the end-of-the-week crowd had had any input

 

[shilsen]

I agree with most of your choices, such as "Caster" for base skill ranks and feats.

For things like Ex, Su and Sp abilities, I would break it up. The spell description says that you retain both your class and your level, so I would see the class abilities persisting for the caster, such as the ability to turn undead, lay on hands, evasion, etc.

The racial abilities would be a mix of caster and target. Physical ones like darkvision would remain if they were the target's, and would not if they were the caster's. Some of the caster's racial abilities would also remain, such as an elf's weapon proficiencies. I can see an argument that the training was based on the original body, but since one gets the class abilities, I'd say retaining these is fine too.

As for memories, I would rule that the target would not remember anything from the period that its soul was trapped in the magic jar.

 

[jgsugden]

A few comments and opinions:

Feats: The caster should retain his normal feats in the new form, though any bonus feats held by the possessed creature should probably also be gained.

Base skills: I'd go with the caster's skill points.

Racial Traits: I'd go with target with the exception of purely mental traits like stonecunning, bonus skill points and bonus feats.

Memories: The target would remember being outside his body. I would also give him the same senses held by the wizard in the magic jar, but without the attack ability: While in the magic jar, you can sense any life force within 10 feet per caster level (and on the same plane of existence). You do need line of effect from the jar to the creatures. You cannot determine the exact creature types or positions of these creatures. In a group of life forces, you can sense a difference of 4 or more Hit Dice between one creature and another and can determine whether a life force is powered by positive or negative energy. (Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.)

One thing to note: You don't pick the target to be taken over. You pick a power level and the final target is randomly picked from all creatures in that power level within range. If a BBEG uses this against a 4 PC party, all of which are level 10, he may end up in one of the PCs or in any of his guards that are 10 HD creatures that happens to be in range. As the range grows with levels gained, this area can be pretty large and hard to figure out.