Magic missile too strong?

[irdeggman]

Someone had mentioned the fact that a player in one of their games routinely chose to forgo 4th level spells in favor of memorizing magic missiles instead.

I'm not certain this is a good basis for stating that MM is too powerful but rather a data point in the on-going discussion of how few good 4th level spells there are. IIRC this has been a fairly frequent topic for discussion with almost all having the opinion that 4th level spells are just not up to par (either in power or in usefulness) as are the spels of other levels.

 

[RigaMortus2]

So you would make a better comparison of warlock to fighter to see how balanced they are correct?

I mean neither has an expended resource problem and both can always do something in combat.

Do the two of those stack well against each other? If so then the class is indeed balanced.

An important thing to remember is that a warlock never benefits from a high BAB in regards to gaining more than 1 attack a round. He needs feats (of which he has no bonus feats to choose from so they must come from level based ones) in order to gain any such benefit.

Not sure. The Fighter does have a reserve sort of... His weapon can be disarmed or sundered. So eventually he can run out of weapons. The Warlock still has his Eldritch Blast, and AFAIK, this can't be sundered or disarmed. The Warlock only has to make touch attacks (even just 1/round, unless Quicken SLA). The Warlock never has to worry about being disarmed or sundered. The Warlock can stay out of harms way (unless we are now comparing a Fighter/Archer, in which case the Fighter DOES have a reserve... arrows), and has useful invo's that help him with this (Flight, Invis, Dimension Door). He has a minor ability to heal himself, a Fighter doesn't. The main weakness of a Warlock AFAICS is getting grappled. He can't cast his Invo's, which is why I feel Sudden Still (Dimension Door) is almost a necessity. Otherwise, somehow pump up Escape Artist or have to rely on friends to help him out. Of course, if a fighter is grappled he is in the same boat, but since he can fight (duh), he will have an easier time getting out of the grapple by himself.

Edit: So I guess I would compare them more to a Monk in this regards, since monk's don't have any type of reserve either (except HPs as well). They CAN use weapons, but they don't need to. And their unarmed strikes can't be sundered or disarmed either. They too have the ability to heal themselves. They have same BAB and HP...

 

[RigaMortus2]

An important thing to remember is that a warlock never benefits from a high BAB in regards to gaining more than 1 attack a round. He needs feats (of which he has no bonus feats to choose from so they must come from level based ones) in order to gain any such benefit.

Right, which pretty much makes Quicken SLA a must have feat if you hope to do more than 1 thing per round. I think the earliest you can get this feat was level 6, so it's not too far off. Same as when a Fighter gets his 2nd attack due to his BAB.

 

[Votan]

Someone had mentioned the fact that a player in one of their games routinely chose to forgo 4th level spells in favor of memorizing magic missiles instead.

I'm not certain this is a good basis for stating that MM is too powerful but rather a data point in the on-going discussion of how few good 4th level spells there are. IIRC this has been a fairly frequent topic for discussion with almost all having the opinion that 4th level spells are just not up to par (either in power or in usefulness) as are the spels of other levels.

I find 4th level spells to be the ones that I eagerly seek out as the key to my arcane builds.

Important Level 4 PHB Arcane Spells

Polymorph [so many options]
Dimension Door [key mobility spell]
Evard's Black Tentacles [best battlefield control spell I know of]
Greater Invisibility [cast while staying invisible]
Enervation [very good spell for weakening foes]

Worth Considering Level 4 PHB Arcane Spells

Phantasmal killer [lowest level save or die spell]
Ice Storm [reliable damage]
Stoneskin [expensive component, nice effect]

Important Level 4 Spell Compendium Arcane Spells

Orb of Force
Orb of Sound
Orb of Fire (daze is nice)
Assay Spell Resistence
Voice of the Dragon
Force Missles (is this not better than Magic Missle???)

I could go on but this is a nice level; even if it doesn't shone in direct attack spells it has a lot of extremely useful arcane spells. I find filling out level 3 spells easier than level 4!

 

[irdeggman]

Not sure. The Fighter does have a reserve sort of... His weapon can be disarmed or sundered. So eventually he can run out of weapons. The Warlock still has his Eldritch Blast, and AFAIK, this can't be sundered or disarmed. The Warlock only has to make touch attacks (even just 1/round, unless Quicken SLA). The Warlock never has to worry about being disarmed or sundered. The Warlock can stay out of harms way (unless we are now comparing a Fighter/Archer, in which case the Fighter DOES have a reserve... arrows), and has useful invo's that help him with this (Flight, Invis, Dimension Door). He has a minor ability to heal himself, a Fighter doesn't. The main weakness of a Warlock AFAICS is getting grappled. He can't cast his Invo's, which is why I feel Sudden Still (Dimension Door) is almost a necessity. Otherwise, somehow pump up Escape Artist or have to rely on friends to help him out. Of course, if a fighter is grappled he is in the same boat, but since he can fight (duh), he will have an easier time getting out of the grapple by himself.

Edit: So I guess I would compare them more to a Monk in this regards, since monk's don't have any type of reserve either (except HPs as well). They CAN use weapons, but they don't need to. And their unarmed strikes can't be sundered or disarmed either. They too have the ability to heal themselves. They have same BAB and HP...

Warlocks also suffer the effects of AMF (and similar effects) since they are using spell-like abilities - which will pretty much totally negate them. (insert evil DM laughter )

 

[DM-Rocco]

Quick question, Rocco: Have you played a Warlock? Have you seen any in play?



A few issues: Warlocks can't use Meta-spell-like-ability feats at will. "Quickened Vitriolic Blast 9d6 acid damage (why woudn't you take quicken spell like ability twice)" Can you take Quicken Eldritch Blast more than once? Don't forget Empower and Maximize while you're at it. Also, how is it that in rnd 3 the Warlock is doing a V-EB and a Swarm?

Anyways, all good points.

I'll go ya one further by mentioning that the same Warlock could also have Flight and Greater Invis up while doing all these whacky Invocation laden EBs.

This doesn't change the fact that most "D&D Days" last 2-3 Encounters... thus putting the Warlock firmly back in the realm of "huh, cool concept character.

To reiterate, the only thing the Warlock truely has going for it (that another class can't do better) is Stamina... and when was the last time you saw an (Cleric, Druid, Sorc, or Wizard) of such high levels run out of spellcasting options? Especially Sorcs... (Edit: I just noticed that you also think Sorcs are borken too.)

Your not taking quicken eldritch blast, you are taking quick spell-like ability, which applies to ALL of you spell-like abilities one, if you take it twice, it applies twice, to all of them, of which, invocations and EB are both spell-like abilities. So for one feat, you are basically getting sudden meta-magic twice.

Anyway, no, I admit I haven't played a Warlock, but I don't have to play every class to make comments on them, and niether do you.

IMO, any class that can use an ability unlimited nubmer of times a day is just wrong. Any class that can use that same ability unlimited times a day while appling effects directly to the ability, making it more powerful, even worse.

I haven't mad a warlock to try and break it, but with the unlimited ability of the invocations and the EB and 1,000s of feats to choose from, I'm sure if I put in five man hours I could find a way to break it. I'm sure others already have.

Anyway, at fist glance, I think a sorcerer is worse, but that is just me and the fact that I have played and broken a sorcerer and I haven't tried a warlock.

 

[Vanye]

Your not taking quicken eldritch blast, you are taking quick spell-like ability, which applies to ALL of you spell-like abilities one, if you take it twice, it applies twice, to all of them, of which, invocations and EB are both spell-like abilities. So for one feat, you are basically getting sudden meta-magic twice.

No, it doesn't.

From the SRD
QUICKEN SPELL-LIKE ABILITY [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Spell-like ability at caster level 10th or higher.
Benefit: Choose one of the creature’s spell-like abilities, subject to the restrictions described below. The creature can use that ability as a quickened spell-like ability three times per day (or less, if the ability is normally usable only once or twice per day).

As you see from the bolded text above, this feat specifically requires you to apply this to a specific SLA.

 

[RigaMortus2]

Your not taking quicken eldritch blast, you are taking quick spell-like ability, which applies to ALL of you spell-like abilities one, if you take it twice, it applies twice, to all of them, of which, invocations and EB are both spell-like abilities. So for one feat, you are basically getting sudden meta-magic twice.

Me thinks you are looking at an out-dated version of the feat...

 

[RigaMortus2]

Warlocks also suffer the effects of AMF (and similar effects) since they are using spell-like abilities - which will pretty much totally negate them. (insert evil DM laughter )

Well this is certainly true. But since AMF is centered on the caster, the Warlock can just keep their distance or run away until and come back later. Assuming they know it is up... Of course this will also hurt a Fighter's magic weapons too, though he'll at least still be able to swing multiple times.

So what point are we proving here? That each class has it's advantages and disadvantages?

 

[Drowbane]

Looks like it's time for me to make a new character, Domain Wizard (Evocation) (UA Wizard variant) with levels of Force Mage (Dragon mag PrC)... Arcane Thesis: Magic Missile. Bunch of metamagic feats... Mmmm, mmmm, good.

If I may, consider a Wu Jen / Force Missile Mage with a dip into (if you feel you can afford to loose one more caster level) of Argent Savant.

With Wu Jen, pick up Spell Secrets: Still-spell MM, Silent MM.