Magic missile too strong?

[DM-Rocco]

And my point is that the spells and tactics you listed as useable against it aren't worth squat in a balance discussion, hence, they did not add to your point. They are white noise.

Actually, they do have merit in the confines of the debate, otherwise you can't bring in things like, "but fireballs has a saving throw and everyone has evasion," or "ranged touch attacks require you to roll." If you think it doesn't have merit, then fireball is superior to magic missile cause you will always out damage a magic missile and no one will have SR or evasion so it will alwyas do damage and more often than not, full damage versus half.

 

[Victim]

It's not like MM exists in a vacuum. Ray of Enfeeblement is still good at high levels - it's not as reliable since it needs an RTA, but it's also far more crippling in most cases. Grease has an effect that triggers on a Balance check - full plate fighters will end up on their rear. At low levels, the area incapacitation spells are usually better than MM.

I haven't had the problem with hitting allies with area spells that many people seem to have. There's usually some way to place the spell such that it avoids hitting allies, especially when you take the z axis into account.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Let's not make this personal, huh? I've played both a wizard and a sorceror, and find my limited spell list to be crippling. I never get to cast utility spells; why take Dispel Magic when the clerics can cast it? Adding a metamagic feat means adding a material focus--a big disc with concentric red circles on it.

Lmao

Well, I find the limitations on wizard spells crippling at times too, or where you refering to a sorcerer?

I'm not saying picking 5 spells a spell level is an easy task, but you can definatily pick very useful spells and be a power house. If you play with blood line feats, you are even better cause you basically get free spells to add to your known list.

 

[DM-Rocco]

Not only have I never considered adding a non-casting class to a casting class, but I think you just went from an extremely small minority to an island of one on this opinion. Unless you are doing it for RP purposes (which is a legit reason), NOBODY should be considering multiclassing in that way as it is about the least optimal thing you can do.

Yes, lots of people take 2 paladin levels for the high save and even a greater number of them have in 3.0 when you only needed one level, thus why they moved it to a 2nd level ability.

I am looking at it objectively, and I do not play sorcerors, ever, because they are so underpowered.

Hmm, there is no reasoning with you then. You probably think the warlock is under powered too?

I wonder, what is your take on the War Mage or the Dread Necromancer?

I was not speaking for the whole community, just the vast majority. And it's based on polls we have done on this board since 3.0 came out. Would you like me to dig some of them up? Would it help if I held a new poll and asked people whether they thought the sorceror was more or less powerful than the wizard?

Sure, whatever turns your crank. No, seriously, go ahead.
Really though, you and I will not agree on this subject so in the end it won't really matter.

 

[irdeggman]

And my point is that the spells and tactics you listed as useable against it aren't worth squat in a balance discussion, hence, they did not add to your point. They are white noise.

Can you please be a little more civil in you comments?


This is not the first time I have perceived your tone as being just down right rude.

 

[Grog]

Monte Cook said the same thing was happening in his games. So did Sean K Reynolds I believe. It's really not that unusual,

It's very unusual IME. I've been playing 3.x since it came out and I've never once seen a sorceror burn a 4th level slot to cast Magic Missile.

particularly at the end of the day where that 4th level slot is still there and you NEED to hit the target more than you need to do massive damage. Given the extremely small number of 4th level spells known by a mid level caster, it's not even uncommon they would know NO offensive spells of that level.

And she DID know and use greater invisibility, and fly, and many non-offense spells. We are discussing offensive spells however, not the rest of it. In fact, her knowledge of those other spells is WHY magic missle is so useful - it's an all-purpose offense spell that can take the place of knowing other offensive spells so you can learn the non-offense spells.

Then perhaps the problem is with her spell selection? An 8th level sorceror knows 2 3rd and 1 4th level spell. Greater Invisibility is a good 4th level spell, but probably not the most effective one a sorceror could pick for their first choice.

Although, if you want to just compare damage, Greater Invis on the party rogue is going to deal significantly more damage in most cases than a Magic Missile will. Average damage on a Magic Missile from an 8th level caster is 14 points. Average damage from an 8th level rogue's sneak attack is 14 points. So the rogue only has to hit once to do the same amount of damage. Plus, the Greater Invis greatly improves his survivability. It's going to be a much better choice in most cases.

And I'm puzzled by the choice of Fly as one of the two 3rd level spells, especially with it's greatly reduced duration for 3.5 - there are several more effective spells a sorceror could choose for that level as well. It sounds like this sorceror has a suboptimal spell list for combat - which is fine if the campaign's focus is on other things, but it doesn't mean Magic Missile is overpowered. It just means she simply doesn't have many other options for combat.

 

[KarinsDad]

IIRC, a Brooch of Shielding costs 1500gp to buy, 750gp to make, and can be made by a 3rd level character. It's not metagaming for NPCs to have one, it's common sense. Anyone above 5th level who expects to someday encounter a hostile arcane caster (ie: lots of NPCs with class levels) should have one. In other words, it might not be everywhere, but it stands to reason that it should.

Should it?

There are lot of Amulet slot items that are more impressive and more useful than a Brooch of Shielding. Even an Amulet of Health +1, although more expensive, protects against about half of the damage of a single Magic Missile spell, but it also does this against a lot of other damage spells and helps against Fort save spells as well. At mid to higher levels, a Brooch of Shielding is a bit of a waste in many circumstances.

The problem with a Brooch of Shielding is that: 1) most characters should not wear or even own one for a variety of reasons, and 2) all the brooch does is stop a few specific magical attacks and change the tactics of the combat. It does not really affect combat that much since it does not protect against most opponents, or even most spells of even arcane casters.

 

[DM-Rocco]

FWIW (and siding with Mistwell), the groups I've played in (levels 1st thru 23rd) have *never* found Sorcerers to be over-powered. Sorcerer is a fine class, and for some player-types it's better than others.

But over-powered? Not a chance. Heck, I'd call 'em "weak" and give 'em d6 HD to compensate.

Now: Magic Missile is a fine spell. I've seen it used (or used it myself) often enough. But it's not broken: both its average damage and its damage cap keep that from happening.

Okay, here's a shock, I agree with ya? Well, kind of. I think a sorcerer is balanced at 1st and 2nd level and 3rd level. Even not too bad at 4th -5th level. My problem with them stems at the higher levels when they can vert spells like no tomorrow. I won't even mind giving them an extra spell known per level if they were confined to converting spells from within there own level, no dumping a higher level spell for a lower one, that is half of were they are "broken" in my own words.

The other half of the equation is the instant meta-magic feats. A wizard needs to take PrC classes to get that and only a few times a day. If there was a limit on that, they would be balanced at higher levels.

But hey, it's America, at least here, so you can disagree with me all ya want

 

[KarinsDad]

Thanee is THE ruler of the sorceror. The undisputed master of that class. If it can be twinked, fiddled, gamed, or munched into being a powerful class, Thanee can do it. But you know, I know, and everyone knows that it took Thanee a huge amount of work and experience to get to the point where the sorceror is power in his/her hands. I think we are talking about your average player, in your average game. And, like the bard, the sorceror is a fine class that just ins't quite up to the power of the wizard class. They can be fun, there are times where their strengths outweigh their weaknesses, but on-balance they are not as powerful as the wizard class, and not "broken" in general as far as classes go (which is what I was disputing, the accusation that the class is not just overpowered, but it was literally called Broken in this thread).

It is not about the average player. It is about the strength of the class. A metamagic sorcerer is one of the strongest classes if played correctly at mid to high levels.

Watering that down by saying that average people cannot take advantage of that does not say anything about the strength of the class.

Do you honestly think the sorceror class is broken? If not, why not speak up and tell that person your opinion on the brokeness of that class.

I've already stated my opinion on this in this thread. They are not broken. But, they are potent if they take good metamagic feats.

The position you took was Ad Populum and Ad Verecundiam which are not legal in a debate. Popular opinion, nor designer opinion, has any real bearing on the truth of the potential of the class. Now, if you are only using that to illustrate that they are not broken (and not to illustrate that they are weak), although not valid in a debate, I do not disagree with your statement.

You have listed a series of reasons why Wizards are more powerful. These are strengths of a Wizard. But, many of those strengths are out of combat strengths. Many of them do not help that much when the chips are down. Metamagic sorcerers outshine Wizards in combat because that is where their strength lies.

 

[DM-Rocco]

It is not about the average player. It is about the strength of the class. A metamagic sorcerer is one of the strongest classes if played correctly at mid to high levels.

Watering that down by saying that average people cannot take advantage of that does not say anything about the strength of the class.



I've already stated my opinion on this in this thread. They are not broken. But, they are potent if they take good metamagic feats.

The position you took was Ad Populum and Ad Verecundiam which are not legal in a debate. Popular opinion, nor designer opinion, has any real bearing on the truth of the potential of the class. Now, if you are only using that to illustrate that they are not broken (and not to illustrate that they are weak), although not valid in a debate, I do not disagree with your statement.

You have listed a series of reasons why Wizards are more powerful. These are strengths of a Wizard. But, many of those strengths are out of combat strengths. Many of them do not help that much when the chips are down. Metamagic sorcerers outshine Wizards in combat because that is where their strength lies.

I couldn't have said it better if I said it myself, and I tried

I think we just disagree on whether or not they are "broken" or "potent"