Magic Missile while blinded

[Minifig]

I need to chuck this up in here... and sorry in advance.

 

[fba827]

i believe you need line of effect, not line of sight, for most powers... correct?

 

[Minifig]

i believe you need line of effect, not line of sight, for most powers... correct?

Magic Missile:

'This power counts as ranged basic attack.'

Ranged Sight says:

A ranged power that has a range of "Sight" that can be used any target within line of sight. You still need line of effect to the target.

Line of Sight says:

Two creatures can see each other if they have line of sight to each other. To determine line of sight, draw an imaginary line between your space and the target's space. If any such line is clear (not blocked), then you have line of sight to the creature (and it has line of sight to you). The line is clear if it doesn't intersect or even touch squares that block line of sight. If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible), you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.

Line of Effect says:

Line of effect tells you whether an effect (such as an explosion) can reach a creature. Line of effect is just like line of sight, except line of effect ignores restrictions on visual ability. For instance, a fireball's explosion doesn't care if a creature is invisible or hiding in darkness.

So reread the Line of Sight part.

It says: If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible). you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.

Without Line of Sight, you can't have Line of Effect, therefore you can't cast Magic Missile blinded without the perception check.

QED.

 

[I'm A Banana]

But its line of effect isn't blocked at all, even when you're blinded. You can hurl a fireball in a room full of people you can't see and still hit 'em. You can hurl MM's in a room full of people you can't see and still maybe hit 'em, too. And you can fire a bow or throw a dagger while blinded just fine.

 

[Minifig]

But its line of effect isn't blocked at all, even when you're blinded. You can hurl a fireball in a room full of people you can't see and still hit 'em. You can hurl MM's in a room full of people you can't see and still maybe hit 'em, too. And you can fire a bow or throw a dagger while blinded just fine.

You're unable to tell that it's line of effect isn't blocked because you're too busy being blinded, therefore you can't throw off the effect to actually have the affect ... effect. Therefore you cannot have line of sight to throw the object or spell.

 

[spayne]

Magic missile does not hit at all; it is not auto-hit. It just deals damage as an effect, which does not count as hitting the target. Since MM does not make an attack roll, it can neither hit nor miss.


You do need line of effect for MM, but line of effect does not require line of sight. You can use MM on a creature just fine while blinded as long as a clear line can be traced between your square and the target's. A perception check is only needed to find a creature if it made a stealth check and has become hidden, otherwise you know exactly where it is, even while you are blinded.

 

[Minifig]

Magic missile does not hit at all; it is not auto-hit. It just deals damage as an effect, which does not count as hitting the target. Since MM does not make an attack roll, it can neither hit nor miss.


You do need line of effect for MM, but line of effect does not require line of sight. You can use MM on a creature just fine while blinded as long as a clear line can be traced between your square and the target's. A perception check is only needed to find a creature if it made a stealth check and has become hidden, otherwise you know exactly where it is, even while you are blinded.

I humbly disagree because Magic Missile is a Ranged Basic Attack, AND/OR a Standard action.

In order to do a standard action OR a ranged basic attack against a target you have to see what you're targeting because otherwise how will you know what to hit with the line of effect? You have line of sight.. you SEE it.. then you use that line of sight to use your line of effect. That line effect is your MM spell. Revert back up to what I said one page ago. If you cannot see it, you cannot effect it with the affect you're trying to effect it with.

 

[havoclad]

I believe there is a flaw in Minifig's argument.

Magic Missile does not have a range of "Ranged Sight" it has a range of "Range 20"

In the Rules Compendium p102 it describes the difference between Range X and Ranged Sight. Ranged X does not require Line of Sight. Just above that is noted "Line of Sight: Unless otherwise noted, the power's user doesn't have to be able to see the target"

To see if there are any other opinions I have also crossposted this question to RPG StackExchange.

 

[DracoSuave]

Magic Missile:

The fact it counts as a ranged basic attack is irrelevant.

Ranged Sight says:

Nothing relevant. Magic Missile does not have a range of 'sight.'

Line of Sight says:

Nothing relevant. Magic Missile does not have a range of 'sight.'

Line of Effect says:

Something relevant.

So reread the Line of Sight part.

It says: If you can't see the target (for instance, if you're blind or the target is invisible). you can't have line of sight to it even if you could draw an unblocked line between your space and the target's.

Again, this is irrelevant.

Without Line of Sight, you can't have Line of Effect, therefore you can't cast Magic Missile blinded without the perception check.

Your argument is based on the fact that ranged powers with a range of 'sight' require line of sight.

Magic Missile is not one of those powers. (Neither is ranged basic attack.)

Magic Missile's range is 20. '20' and 'Sight' are not the same thing.

QED.

Except you did not Demonstrandum anything to Quod Est.

It is a ranged power. The point of origin is yourself. So you need a single line of effect to the target. However, it does not have an attack roll, therefore concealment does nothing. All line of sight does for attacks is determine concealment.

You can use Magic Missile if you are blind just as you can use a Healing Word while you are blind. Magic Missile is a power with no attack roll that has an Effect line. (This is not technically the same thing as 'automatically hitting', tho you can grok it that way if you like) Healing Word is a power with no attack roll that has an Effect line. Unless that effect is explicitly negated by lack of line of sight (teleportation springs to mind) then there's no reason to believe Magic Missile behaves any different.

Moreover, one cannot hold the idea that Magic Missile cannot be used on a target while blinded, but that Ray of Frost can (with a -5 penalty.) It's already established that yes, you can make ranged attacks while blinded. Magic Missile benefits from that.

I humbly disagree because Magic Missile is a Ranged Basic Attack, AND/OR a Standard action.

I humbly disagree because bacon is not a vegetable.

Your points are irrelevant.

In order to do a standard action OR a ranged basic attack against a target you have to see what you're targeting because otherwise how will you know what to hit with the line of effect?

Nope.

1) Unless the enemy has made a stealth check against you, you are aware of its location. The rules are explicit about this.
2) Ranged attack specificly states that you can use it against an enemy you cannot see.
3) Nothing in Standard Action acts as an exception to either rule.
4) Nothing in Ranged Basic Attack acts as an exception to either rule.

You have line of sight.. you SEE it.. then you use that line of sight to use your line of effect. That line effect is your MM spell. Revert back up to what I said one page ago. If you cannot see it, you cannot effect it with the affect you're trying to effect it with.

Incorrect. Line of Effect is not dependant on Line of Sight, and Line of Sight is not dependant on Line of Effect. You're confusing 'making a ranged attack' with 'teleportation' which DOES behave as you state.

The only sort of ranged attack where this applies is with Gaze attacks and attacks with "Ranged sight"-range, which present an explicit exception to the line of sight rules

Magic Missile does not have that keyword, or that range.

 

[shamefuldirty g]

I would of thought that you would need to see the opponent even if it does hit automatically. That's just me though.