magic missle house rules?
- Thread starter dema
- Start date
If you are having problems with MM IYC, come up with the counters for it. High level wizards have Contingency for a reason, use it to bring up a Shield the first time your hit by a MM or better yet, Minor Globe of Invulnerablility. Every spell between levels 1-3 are countered against you.
The problems people seem to have with MM is when its iehanced by metamagic feats. People are sacrificing a spell of higher power for thier magic missles. Unless against rogue's, I prefer empowered fireballs or sonicballs as a 5th level spell.
The problems people seem to have with MM is when its iehanced by metamagic feats. People are sacrificing a spell of higher power for thier magic missles. Unless against rogue's, I prefer empowered fireballs or sonicballs as a 5th level spell.
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
icedrake said:
I am not seeing the problem. A Maximized MM does 25 points ot a single target as a 4th level spell -- no save. The often decried as weak Ice Storm does ~21 points to an area as a 4th level spell -- no save.
Someone explain to me what is abusive about metamagicked MMs, please. If your wizards are regularly using Quickened MM, then that tells me they are cocky about knowing how much fighting to expect that day. A 5th level slot for a measly 16.5 damage looks like a very heavy price to pay and is in no way abusive.
I like the idea of each missle having a reflex saving throw.
But that means that rogues aren't going to be hit that much.
How about the monk catch one with each +1 enhancement consideration?
And I like fireball potions.
5' range mod.
50' max range
20' radius
Dangerous but fun.
More later,
Vahktang
But that means that rogues aren't going to be hit that much.
How about the monk catch one with each +1 enhancement consideration?
And I like fireball potions.
5' range mod.
50' max range
20' radius
Dangerous but fun.
More later,
Vahktang
For Lower-Level spellcasters, MM is important because he cannot compare to the warrior classes in damage with or without this spell. It gives him the flexibility that other classes don't have; when the warriors are having trouble taking someone down, a little magic missile can do wonders.
However, at higher levels, the spell becomes one of the big "nuke" spells like Lightning bolt and Fireball; If not only because he has no other useful spell to put into his 1st level slots.
One possiblity for a House rule would be that monsters over 10 hd get a saving throw for half damage. This keeps the spell usefull for those low level spellcasters, and softens the blow at higher levels, when the spellcaster should be relying on better spells.
However, at higher levels, the spell becomes one of the big "nuke" spells like Lightning bolt and Fireball; If not only because he has no other useful spell to put into his 1st level slots.
One possiblity for a House rule would be that monsters over 10 hd get a saving throw for half damage. This keeps the spell usefull for those low level spellcasters, and softens the blow at higher levels, when the spellcaster should be relying on better spells.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
peedy711 said:
Although if facing ethereal or incorporeal opponents magic missile probably remains THE best spell to use - it is the only standard offensive spell which is guaranteed to work in those circumstances (although someone properly equipped could probably use Blink to target the ethereal instead of the material with their fireballs if they wished, it is a much more specialised option).
Cheers
jgsugden
Legend
Comparing the damage dealing of magic missile to other first level spells is not getting to the point. The point is, magic missile has several features that make it far superior to other 1st level spells, especially as you advance in levels.
How many 18th level wizards have you seen cast a burning hands spell? In 99% of the campaigns out there, the high level wizard would be embarassed to cast a burning hands spell as anything other than a joke. His foes will have a relatively easy time making the saving throw and the damage will be pathetic, regardless of how many targets are hit.
That same 18th level wizard likely still keeps magic missiles in his arsenal. Their advantages far outshine the other 1st level combat spells at this point. The magic missiles are hard to resist. They deal a decent amount of damage (not a lot, but as much as the party's fighter probably does on a single sword strike), they *never miss* and they deal a type of damage that nothing resists.
The people designing 3.0 knew this spell was out of balance, but the backlash to any significant changes was so large that they decided to leave it in the game in basically the same form as 3.0. They talked about this in interviews.
The spell has multiple features that verge on broken (always hits, hard to resist). The spell can't be balanced if it deals damage anywhere close to what other 1st level spells can deliver and has these incredible features.
That being said, the 'broken' nature of the spell was taken into consideration when balancing the wizard and sorcerer classes. It was assumed that the wizard would have a few magic missiles to toss out in comba when their other spells ran low ... a sort of default attack that still was useful. If you change the spell, you need to remember that this tweaks spellcasters down in balance issues.
How many 18th level wizards have you seen cast a burning hands spell? In 99% of the campaigns out there, the high level wizard would be embarassed to cast a burning hands spell as anything other than a joke. His foes will have a relatively easy time making the saving throw and the damage will be pathetic, regardless of how many targets are hit.
That same 18th level wizard likely still keeps magic missiles in his arsenal. Their advantages far outshine the other 1st level combat spells at this point. The magic missiles are hard to resist. They deal a decent amount of damage (not a lot, but as much as the party's fighter probably does on a single sword strike), they *never miss* and they deal a type of damage that nothing resists.
The people designing 3.0 knew this spell was out of balance, but the backlash to any significant changes was so large that they decided to leave it in the game in basically the same form as 3.0. They talked about this in interviews.
The spell has multiple features that verge on broken (always hits, hard to resist). The spell can't be balanced if it deals damage anywhere close to what other 1st level spells can deliver and has these incredible features.
That being said, the 'broken' nature of the spell was taken into consideration when balancing the wizard and sorcerer classes. It was assumed that the wizard would have a few magic missiles to toss out in comba when their other spells ran low ... a sort of default attack that still was useful. If you change the spell, you need to remember that this tweaks spellcasters down in balance issues.
I'm not sure if it was this thread or some other thread talking about Magic Missile, but one suggestion I've seen and considered implementing is to limit MM to three missiles rather than five. This would still make it useful at lower levels (no change until 6th level), but still keep it balanced with other first-level offensive spells.
After all, at lower levels it is quite balanced. A 4th level wizard can either cast Burning Hands as a limited-area spell and do 4d4 damage (with a save and fire resistance), or he can cast Magic Missile to do 2d4+2, no questions asked. That's balanced. What isn't balanced is the 10th level wizard either doing 5d4 with burning hands or 5d4+5 with Magic Missile.
After all, at lower levels it is quite balanced. A 4th level wizard can either cast Burning Hands as a limited-area spell and do 4d4 damage (with a save and fire resistance), or he can cast Magic Missile to do 2d4+2, no questions asked. That's balanced. What isn't balanced is the 10th level wizard either doing 5d4 with burning hands or 5d4+5 with Magic Missile.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Staffan said:
This is EXACTLY what I do! I think MM is balanced with Shocking Grasp & Burning Hands right up until 7th level... the error is placing the cap at 5 HD instead of at 5th LEVEL.
The PCs recently fought a 9th level Necromancer who threw some Quickened MMs at them, and the spell is still a damn good one.
-- N
two
First Post
What others said.
It's like they designed a first level attack spell and gave it not a few, not a couple, but ALL the possible advantages.
1) Great range.
2) Force damage is the hardest to resist.
3) Great against ghosts, etc.
4) Automatically hits.
5) No save.
6) Scales up better than any other 1st level spell (except "Enlarge Person").
Disadvantages: er....... well... I mean... uh... it's boring? True. Very boring.
If you take away ANY of the above advantages, it makes for a more balanced and interesting spell. For example: "sonic ball-o-noise" (replace force damage with sonic, nerfs 2/3). Replace 1) with "close range". Replace 5) with "Save for half." Cap damage at three or four dice (nerfs 6). But nooooooooooooo.
It's like they designed a first level attack spell and gave it not a few, not a couple, but ALL the possible advantages.
1) Great range.
2) Force damage is the hardest to resist.
3) Great against ghosts, etc.
4) Automatically hits.
5) No save.
6) Scales up better than any other 1st level spell (except "Enlarge Person").
Disadvantages: er....... well... I mean... uh... it's boring? True. Very boring.
If you take away ANY of the above advantages, it makes for a more balanced and interesting spell. For example: "sonic ball-o-noise" (replace force damage with sonic, nerfs 2/3). Replace 1) with "close range". Replace 5) with "Save for half." Cap damage at three or four dice (nerfs 6). But nooooooooooooo.
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