Magic Of Incarnum?

[theredrobedwizard]

If you are careful, and know what you're doing, Incarnum can be just as broken as Psionics.

So, through careful planning and optimization, one can make an Incarnum user that's balanced with the rest of the game? Heavens, that's terrible.

As someone stated above, it's a steep learning curve, and some day I'm going to make the trek. Today isn't that day.

-TRRW

 

[DungeonMaester]

Soulborn is the "retarded cousin" of the Incarnate and Totemist... and even those two are somewhat on the weak side.

As the Wu Jen is the "Retarded Cousin" of the Sorc. But I love my Wu Jen So...

---Rusty

 

[Drowbane]

As the Wu Jen is the "Retarded Cousin" of the Sorc. But I love my Wu Jen So...

---Rusty

Funny that, I combine the two classes. Basicly Sorc with Wu Jen spell list, taboos, and spell secrets. Nobody has played one yet though

 

[D.Shaffer]

What other classes have to deal with this choice? I can't think of any off the top of my head, so having to choose between your best class abilities or most slotted magic items (which constitute a larger & larger percentage of a character's power as he increases in level) is not a fair trade.

That's sort of the point of Incarnum though. You sacrifice the ability to use some magical items for the ability to form temp items. As part of that tradeoff, very often those bound melds are MORE powerful then a magical items you could get at the same level. If you have certain melds you use all the time, you can then overcompensate in other areas for those magical items you do take. It takes a little bit more planning, yes, but you arent giving up that much to often. It's really not all that much different from someone taking Weapon Focus Longsword, and then working to make sure that their future weapons are Longswords. It takes more planning, but that's part of the fun for me.

For instance, looking at the Heart melds for my (currently level 7) Totemist, I'm likely never going to use any of them, they dont fit my character's style. I thus can use armor without worry. On the other hand, I concentrate on various natural weapon melds. I can get the equivalent of a +4 weapon while still carrying a shield. I really have no need to carry a magical weapon. All the funds that would go into said weapon go into more 'useful' stuff for me (AKA, Armor). I also have a large grab bag of 'tool' type magical items.

 

[Rvdvelden]

A fellow player in the group that I'm currently in is playing an Incarnate. Through proper use of his soulmelds he is able to get insane AC bonusses and mainly acts as a party tank, only without the firepower (wizard's BAB). He frustrates the heck out of the DM, because A) getting 40+ AC while the rest of the party is around 25 makes it hard to prepare a good, balanced combat, and B) shifting around essentia is a bit of a bookkeeping job and if you don't know the rules well, it's hard to follow what he's doing.

Other than that, it's not insanely overpowered or underpowered. It's just a class that you need to study carefully to get good benefits. Same thing for my Dragonfire Adept: if you don't scrutinize all the invocations he'll seem underpowered, but if you use the right combination, he can take and deal quite a punch.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

Not if you know how to play them right. At fourth level, a Soulborn is only supposed to be able to Smite Opposition 1 time per day. I have one who could do it 3. If you are careful, and know what you're doing, Incarnum can be just as broken as Psionics.
Besides, Soulborn can get a lot of melds that render them immune to various things, not counting their Incarnum Defence, which grants them an immunity based on their level, as I said earlier. That can prove very useful in the right circumstances.

I will throw down the gauntlet and have you throw your best build here. I bet someone can create a straight fighter (or alternately a paladin, since a paladin is the closest core class to a soulborn) using just the core rules that outshines it.

DS

 

[saucercrab]

That's sort of the point of Incarnum though. You sacrifice the ability to use some magical items for the ability to form temp items. As part of that tradeoff, very often those bound melds are MORE powerful then a magical items you could get at the same level. If you have certain melds you use all the time, you can then overcompensate in other areas for those magical items you do take. It takes a little bit more planning, yes, but you arent giving up that much to often. It's really not all that much different from someone taking Weapon Focus Longsword, and then working to make sure that their future weapons are Longswords. It takes more planning, but that's part of the fun for me.

From what I remember when looking over the soulmelds, I was hard-pressed to find soulmelds to be bound instead of standard magic items to wear. I wasn't making a character, mind you, but just looking at what a bound soulmeld had to offer vs an item in the same slot.

For instance, looking at the Heart melds for my (currently level 7) Totemist, I'm likely never going to use any of them, they dont fit my character's style. I thus can use armor without worry. On the other hand, I concentrate on various natural weapon melds. I can get the equivalent of a +4 weapon while still carrying a shield. I really have no need to carry a magical weapon. All the funds that would go into said weapon go into more 'useful' stuff for me (AKA, Armor). I also have a large grab bag of 'tool' type magical items.

In the latter case, it's not that you're saving money on not having to buy a magic weapon(s) (which is a good thing, though). It's that (most) weapons don't take up item slots, while any bound, natural-attack soulmelds do.

 

[D.Shaffer]

It's that (most) weapons don't take up item slots, while any bound, natural-attack soulmelds do.

Actually, the Totemist natural attack melds are all Totem melds. No slots to take up.

You also need to look at cross slot equivalents. For example, the Worm Tail belt is a +2 Natural Armor bonus just to have it shaped (Waist slot) and can easily be pumped up, PLUS it's available at level 1. Compare this to the Amulet of Natural Armor at 2000 for a +1 and 8000 for +2. This is one of the better melds as you dont need to bind it to the slot for its main effect. Others have similar cost saving benefits compared to actually buying the equivalent magical item. This isnt taking into account the abilities actually binding them can give you.

 

[griff_goodbeard]

I will throw down the gauntlet and have you throw your best build here. I bet someone can create a straight fighter (or alternately a paladin, since a paladin is the closest core class to a soulborn) using just the core rules that outshines it.

DS

I'll give it a shot tonight after work.

 

[saucercrab]

Actually, the Totemist natural attack melds are all Totem melds. No slots to take up.

Ah, I never noticed that before. Thanks for pointing that out.

You also need to look at cross slot equivalents. For example, the Worm Tail belt is a +2 Natural Armor bonus just to have it shaped (Waist slot) and can easily be pumped up, PLUS it's available at level 1. Compare this to the Amulet of Natural Armor at 2000 for a +1 and 8000 for +2. This is one of the better melds as you dont need to bind it to the slot for its main effect. Others have similar cost saving benefits compared to actually buying the equivalent magical item. This isnt taking into account the abilities actually binding them can give you.

I realize that soulmelds can take the place of magic items (& in some instances are better).

The point I've been trying to make is that all (most?) other classes can have full class abilities and make full use of magic items at the same time. A wizard doesn't have to give up spell slots to use magic hats, a rogue doesn't have to lower skill ranks or sneak attack dice to use magic boots, etc. Incarnum characters do have to choose between full class abilities or unrestricted magic item use. And that puts them at a disadvantage.