Magic Users too Tough??

[Crow Caller]

Hey,

I've been playing DND for years now (arround 10) and one thing has always bugged me, but now more than ever.

Are Magic Users too Tough?

-&- on a related note:

Is the game TOO Magic Dependant?

Too answer both these questions take a 10th level Fighter (NO Magic Items) and pitch him against a 10th Level Magic User (Only allowed magic Items he himself created), then get back to me.

IMHO the answer is, YES They are TOO Tough, and YES the Game is TOO Magic Dependant.

Whatever happened to good old Blood, Sweat, and Tears? Man against the Elements? etc. etc. it seems they've been washed away in a tidal surge of Potions, Enhancements and Enchantments.

Just my Two Cents, let us know what you think (seriously try out the above hpothetical, OH! And don't forget to start the two opponents just outside the maximium distance of the eiher the Wizard/Sorceror's longest reaching spell, or the Fighter's longest reaching ranged weapon, which ever is farthest.)

Cheers.

 

[Lord Wyrm]

I saw a fighter 15 using only a non-magical spiked chain beat a wizard of equal level without any trouble. Granted he kept either tripping the wizard, grappling him, or reading an action to hit him when he tried to cast and he was incredibly beefy (str 22 I believe) but the wizard was smart and had a spell for any occasion. The fight really came down to a contest of Hit Dice, which the Fighter wins.

 

[Joker]

I don't think they are particularly tough, but I do think they (High-level magic users) are very flexible, have great mobility and some serious power.

3.X is very magic dependent (whether or not it's "too" dependent on magic depends on your POV). Of all the editions I feel that 3.X has the greatest emphasis on magic items. It's all about making the most out of the few slots that you have.

That said, and don't take this as a personal attack, I think your example is skewed. Some classes are more dependent on magic items and magic support than others. You cannot expect any magic-less character to take on a magic user at what? 1100ft apart? The wizard would just fly off/become invisible/ bombard from far way without the fighter being able to do anything. In this situation it hardly matters what level the fighter is. The wizard is gonna own simply by virtue of the fighter being severely handicapped.

An iconic party consists of character complimenting and supplementing each other to achieve or overcome something. They buff the fighters, protect the wizards, aid the rogues, cast hold person on the bezerkers. This is DnD as I see it.

But eventually the wizard will outgrow the fighter. It's practically inevitable.

 

[shilsen]

Too answer both these questions take a 10th level Fighter (NO Magic Items) and pitch him against a 10th Level Magic User (Only allowed magic Items he himself created), then get back to me.

Don't you think the above parameters are just a teensy bit lopsided?

More importantly, something like the above is mostly irrelevant to D&D, since it's not a game built around arena combat. The majority of D&D games involve parties of PCs working together, in which case whether one PC can beat another is unimportant. What matters is whether different classes can supplement each other's abilities, be useful in the game and have their own niches. The magic-using and non-magic-using classes can do that, so they work fine within the context of the game.

 

[Thanee]

Yeah, magic (not necessarily magic-users, but magic items, etc) is a bit excessive in higher level D&D. In many cases, the magical bonuses are more important than the class abilities.

And a fighter 15th with no magical equipment has exactly a 0% chance to defeat even a moderately smart wizard 15th, that is not sleeping or otherwise completely helpless.

Anyways, I've seen wizards struggle hard at higher levels, their low hit point totals and bad Fort/Ref saves can be a real downside. And fighters are surely not bad at higher levels, not as flexible, versatile or even powerful as spellcasters (they are much better at lower levels in comparison, tho), but far from useless.

In any case, spellcasting is surely the most potent ability in D&D at higher levels.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Crow Caller]

Hey,

The reason I put these to adversaries at such a distance is because this is how it would be, talking from a realistic point of veiw. For instance if I were to decide to go and attack somebody I would first have to approach said person which means at somepoint Im going to be 1000 odd feet from them, if the person Im attacking in a magic user, well, you get the point.

Likewise if the magic user decides to attack the fighter, once he gets to within 1000ft he begins his bombardement of spells.

I beleive that a Fighter of 15th level should have a 50% of besting a Magic User of 15th level WITHOUT having to use magic.

As for having different classes to "compliment" each other?? For starters say good buy to the rogue, there is NO Point having one, just have a "Rogueish" Magic Users with boots of this and cloaks of that, invisibility, knock, detect magic and detect snares and pits, true seeing, enhance your ability with this belt or that, etc, etc.

let's take a basic 15th level fighter ST 21 Masterwork Greatsword (heck lets make it Adamantium) and with WF & WS he gets 3 attacks a round at plus 23/18/13 and deals on average with each hit 18 dmg for a combined (assuming all attacks hit) 54 damage (infact lets assume because he is 15th level he is fighting an enemy with a mere AC of 25, so our fighter use power attack 5, hitting each time for a Damage of 69), now figuring in crits makes a difference so let's work this out. (We will say he has improved crit making his threat range 17-20/x2) 17 to 20 means he has a 20% chance of threatening a crit, since his opponent has AC 25 and our fighter is PA'ing for 5, this means our Fighter has a 13% chance to Score a Crit on his first attack, an 8% chance for a crit on the 2nd attack and a 3% chance of a crit on his 3rd attack. Now if we add these together and divide by 3 we get an 8% chance of Scoring a Crit per round. that's 1 Critical in Every 12.5 rounds, so for the sake of averages Im going to divide his extra Crit damage (of 69) by 12.5 to get 5.52 then add this to his base 69 to get a total average of 74.52 damage in one round.

Now lets take a 15th level magic User (infact let's take a Wizard.) he cast a maximised empowered twin fireball a deals 270 hp save for half. (He might actually be unable to cast this high a spell so lets say its just a twin firball dealing on average 105 damage save for half) Now tell me what is the point of going a fighter? and don't say HP, with all the spells out there you can just get a better body with more HP or become a lich!!!!

If anyone is interested, to rectify this huge injustice to the Fighters, Rogues and Barbarians, I give them all SR 11+Level, now the magic user "Hits" them as often as the hit the magic user.

(Rangers and Paladins are okay since their spells help compensate)

Cheers.

 

[Bullgrit]

For instance if I were to decide to go and attack somebody I would first have to approach said person which means at somepoint Im going to be 1000 odd feet from them, if the person Im attacking in a magic user, well, you get the point.

What, you can't corner the mage in a tavern? In a dungeon corridor? In his inn room?

Bullgrit

 

[Crow Caller]

Thanee Wrote:

"Yeah, magic (not necessarily magic-users, but magic items, etc) is a bit excessive in higher level D&D. In many cases, the magical bonuses are more important than the class abilities."

Yeah tell me about it, I "fix" this adding two little 0's to the end of ALL Magic Item prices and to the End of of the cost to pay a Magic User to cast spells. All of a sudden Magic Weapons are a lot less common, (In my games I assume 100 times less common) and if you get one You Bloddy well Keep it!!! No prancing off to the market to swap in your +1 long sword for a +1 short short and change! If you aren't trained in long sword, you better learn, or keep it for your son!

Try this and watch of hesitant PC's become before they press their lips to the end of that cure moderate wounds potion

I can just see the Lord of the Rings remake with the current DND rules, "Oh its all right Mr. Sauron sir, I already have 2 magic rings, here ya go. Oh by the way, in case you loose it again, see that tall blue fella he's got tons of "One Rings" and Rods of Rulership to boot! Okie dokie then I best be off" *pulls out wand of teleport with out error* and POOF!!!

Cheers.

 

[Aust Diamondew]

Don't even bother with damage dealing spells. Just go for a quick and easy dominate person (DC 10+4 int, +4 level, +2 spell focuses) DC 20. 15th level fighter's will save (5 base+ 1 wisdom+ 2 iron will) +8. The figher fails fifty five percent of the time and I wasn't even power gaming.

 

[Crow Caller]

Aust Dont try it on the Fighter STUPID! ! ! Dominate His Barbarian buddie thats WAY Easier, then tell BoBo to bash Mr. Fighter for you (Whilst you help with a few Magic Missiles)

Just yesterday my Brother's first level cleric single handedly killed and Ogre by commanding it to "die" it fell over thinking it was dead and he coup de graced it.

Cheers.