Magic Weapons

[werk]

David's Sling

Samson's jawbone of an Ass

Didn't St George use an axe to kill the dragon, Jacobin or something...

Also, Shaka Zulu had a spear that was magical, I believe.

 

[lukelightning]

Guan Yu's (Romance of the Three Kingdoms) gread sword-Black dragon

Ah, I forgot that "qinglong" can be translated as "black dragon" as well (see my earlier post about Guan Di/Yu). The color "qing" in Chinese is bizarre; who makes a word that can be green, blue, or BLACK? Things that are "qing" colored range from dragonflies to the sky to snakes to grass and herbs. (p.s. "qing" sounds pretty much like "ching" in "I just made a lot of money, ka-ching!"

Moral of the story: If a Chinese person warns you about the qing dragon in the dungeon you won't know if it is a green, blue, or black dragon (2/3 chance of acid...1/3 chance of lightning....)

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

as with all the other weapons included in this thread. whichever god they reference.

Not really. There is a distinct and substantial difference between the lance of longinus, Mjolnir, the unnamed sword Beowulf found in Grendel's mother's cave, the two magic swords in the saga of Kornack the skald, and David's sling and Samson's jawbone.

First, the lance of Longinus was thought to have specific powers inherent in it. It made its owner invincible, if used to strike someone, it might bring a curse upon the kingdom, etc. These powers were not merely demonstrations that if God is on your side the weapon doesn't matter. Rather, they are side effects of the object's sacredness and the blasphemy that would be striking someone with it. The sword Beowulf found in Grendel's mother's cave was forged by giants and while Hrunting was unable to kill Grendel's mother, the sword was able to injure her. In the epic, God's favor was neither here nor there since it is a self-consciously Christian retelling of a story about earlier pagans who did not know God. The same is true of the magic swords in the story of Kornack. They had special powers that did not connote divine favor and at least the one that Kornack borrowed had to be prepared with a special ritual in order to function.

The same is true in Greek myth. When Perseus went to fight Medusa, he was given the Aegis to use, but the Aegis was not a sign of divine favor; instead the Aegis was the manifestation of divine favor. The gods favored Perseus therefore they gave him a divine shield (and a bunch of other magic stuff).

In norse myth, Thor's hammer is special, independent of Thor. Thor is special, partly because he has the strength to wield Mjolnir. But if Mjolnir is stolen, Thor can't pick up any old hammer and have it do the same thing. The powers are inherent in Mjolnir not in Thor.

The stories of David and Samson are the exact opposite. There was nothing special about David's sling. It wasn't long before Jonathan gave him a bow and he used that. When he was on the run from King Saul, he used Goliath's sword for a while. As far as the story reads, he never used a sling again after that battle, it was just what he happened to have at the time. The point of the story is not that God favored David and therefore God gave him a magic sling or gave him a weapon that was otherwise powerful. The point is that God favored David and therefore David won despite his inadequate weaponry. In D&D terms, that's more analogous to a pre-erratta Divine Favor spell rather than a magic weapon. The same is true of Samson and the jawbone of an ass. He wasn't carrying the jawbone and when he finished killing the thousands of Philistines, he didn't keep it. It was simply the only tool he had handy at a time. The story of Samson is very clear that the divine favor that was upon Samson was his strength (and possibly some form of increased skill or invulnerability since strength alone wouldn't stop a spear, arrow or sling bullet from hitting him and something obviously did). The jawbone of an ass is simply the nearest tool at hand; it was used when necessary and discarded when unneeded. That seems more like (pre errata) Righteous Might and maybe an intensified bull's strength than a magic weapon to me.

Really, unless a story claims that a weapon has some special quality, it doesn't seem appropriate to call it a magic weapon in these terms. There's as much reason to call Seargent Rock's gun magic as there is to call David's sling, Samuel's jawbone of an ass, Johnathan's spear, Ehud's dagger, etc. magic. If you want a biblical magic weapon, you're better off looking at the Cherub with the flaming sword set to guard the garden of eden in Genesis.

 

[Kyramus]

Spear of Destiny (subject of a Castle Wolfenstein game at one point, also supposedly used by Hitler since he was a big occult afficionado)

 

[Megatron]

as far as Guan Yu's weapons is concerned the best I can come up with at the moment, that is what wikipedia can give me ;p, is an article called "Green Dragon Crescent Blade" which i found from the article on Guan Yu.

Woo.

 

[Megatron]

Spear of Destiny (subject of a Castle Wolfenstein game at one point, also supposedly used by Hitler since he was a big occult afficionado)

yep, that's another name for the Lance of Longinus

 

[Megatron]

Not really. There is a distinct and substantial difference between the lance of longinus, Mjolnir, the unnamed sword Beowulf found in Grendel's mother's cave, the two magic swords in the saga of Kornack the skald, and David's sling and Samson's jawbone.

First, the lance of Longinus was thought to have specific powers inherent in it. It made its owner invincible, if used to strike someone, it might bring a curse upon the kingdom, etc. These powers were not merely demonstrations that if God is on your side the weapon doesn't matter. Rather, they are side effects of the object's sacredness and the blasphemy that would be striking someone with it. The sword Beowulf found in Grendel's mother's cave was forged by giants and while Hrunting was unable to kill Grendel's mother, the sword was able to injure her. In the epic, God's favor was neither here nor there since it is a self-consciously Christian retelling of a story about earlier pagans who did not know God. The same is true of the magic swords in the story of Kornack. They had special powers that did not connote divine favor and at least the one that Kornack borrowed had to be prepared with a special ritual in order to function.

The same is true in Greek myth. When Perseus went to fight Medusa, he was given the Aegis to use, but the Aegis was not a sign of divine favor; instead the Aegis was the manifestation of divine favor. The gods favored Perseus therefore they gave him a divine shield (and a bunch of other magic stuff).

In norse myth, Thor's hammer is special, independent of Thor. Thor is special, partly because he has the strength to wield Mjolnir. But if Mjolnir is stolen, Thor can't pick up any old hammer and have it do the same thing. The powers are inherent in Mjolnir not in Thor.

The stories of David and Samson are the exact opposite. There was nothing special about David's sling. It wasn't long before Jonathan gave him a bow and he used that. When he was on the run from King Saul, he used Goliath's sword for a while. As far as the story reads, he never used a sling again after that battle, it was just what he happened to have at the time. The point of the story is not that God favored David and therefore God gave him a magic sling or gave him a weapon that was otherwise powerful. The point is that God favored David and therefore David won despite his inadequate weaponry. In D&D terms, that's more analogous to a pre-erratta Divine Favor spell rather than a magic weapon. The same is true of Samson and the jawbone of an ass. He wasn't carrying the jawbone and when he finished killing the thousands of Philistines, he didn't keep it. It was simply the only tool he had handy at a time. The story of Samson is very clear that the divine favor that was upon Samson was his strength (and possibly some form of increased skill or invulnerability since strength alone wouldn't stop a spear, arrow or sling bullet from hitting him and something obviously did). The jawbone of an ass is simply the nearest tool at hand; it was used when necessary and discarded when unneeded. That seems more like (pre errata) Righteous Might and maybe an intensified bull's strength than a magic weapon to me.

Really, unless a story claims that a weapon has some special quality, it doesn't seem appropriate to call it a magic weapon in these terms. There's as much reason to call Seargent Rock's gun magic as there is to call David's sling, Samuel's jawbone of an ass, Johnathan's spear, Ehud's dagger, etc. magic. If you want a biblical magic weapon, you're better off looking at the Cherub with the flaming sword set to guard the garden of eden in Genesis.

It seems to me that your thinking very much in game terms, where as the rest of us (at least I am, and it seems some of those offering advice are) thinking more in the archetypal, literary sense of the term "magic weapon"

 

[DonTadow]

It seems to me that your thinking very much in game terms, where as the rest of us (at least I am, and it seems some of those offering advice are) thinking more in the archetypal, literary sense of the term "magic weapon"

Actually, I'd think the opposite of it. I think Elder's thinking in an historical literature sense of what would be deemed magical. Some of the weapons listed are not magical,. It is their users whom were enchanted by divinity and thus wer able to accomplish extaordinary acts with the weapon

 

[Elder-Basilisk]

It seems to me that your thinking very much in game terms, where as the rest of us (at least I am, and it seems some of those offering advice are) thinking more in the archetypal, literary sense of the term "magic weapon"

Not at all. What some people seem to be thinking of is "weapon that was used to win an extraordinary victory." The story of Samson is quite clear about where the magic was: it was on Samson. When the spirit of God came over him, he was strong enough to tear the gates of Ashkelon (IIRC) off their hinges and carry them several miles. He wrestled a lion and killed it. When thousands of Philistines attacked him, he picked up the jawbone of an ass and killed them all with it. In the story, which is special, Samson or the jawbone? It's Samson who is empowered and the point of the jawbone is to demonstrate that he is empowered to the extent that he can defeat thousands of Philistines without a decent weapon. Deciding that the jawbone must be a magic weapon defeats the entire point of the story--then anyone with that particular jawbone would have won the same victory.

If you subscribe to the idea that a spectactular victory won with a weapon means the weapon must be magic then every story from sergeant Rock to Eddie Rickenbacker and the Red Baron to David's each of David's mighty men described in the book of Samuel must have had at least one magic weapon each. However, if you want your paper to be relevant to the archetypical, literary sense of a magic weapon, then you would be better off sticking to weapons that are specifically ascribed magical properties or legendary powers. Mjolnir, Durandel, Excalibur, the lance of Longinus, Gae bolge, Gunnar's bill (from the saga of burnt Njal), and possibly the ogress of war (Skarphedin's axe from the same saga), etc qualify. (As does the sword from the saga of Kornack the Skald even if it didn't win Kornack the victory he wanted). The sling of David and the Samson's jawbone of an ass do not. If anything, the point of those stories is that the weapons do NOT have any special powers.

 

[Tatsukun]

I am not sure if anyone has mentioned Kusanagi (one of the three Japanese Imperial items, a sword).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kusanagi

It's got a good history, plus lots of different theories. But if you actually see it, it's a bit old looking... (not that I have seen it in person).

http://brian.hoffert.faculty.noctrl.edu/TEACHING/ImperialRegalia.Yellow.png

Anyway, it's worthy of being on the list.

-Tatsu