Magical items

[Wiman]

I really believe that 4th edition will allow you more freedom in item creation (although I have nothing that I can produce to make this hard evidence), however more work will go into the job from the DM....which makes sense, magic items created by characters without any DM interaction or very little (as the players would stick their fingers into rule books and read aloud the exact way that WOTC has ruled item creation should take place) is not a good thing in my opinion....3e had that in spades. I also believe the system is trying to become more a character's abilities leading the way, not the stuff they own...this has been stated several times by designers.

From what I've seen on the WOTC playtest blogs, magic items will still be generic items which actually brings me down quite a bit but makes sense when you are doing a rules system. I actually like the "I find a magic sword which gives me +1 at 3rd level....I'm at 18th level and the same sword gives me +6" but I know that this mechanic will not make it into the standard rules system (although like I have said I like it, so I may make that option available to players at my game...a better magic item if they are willing to quest for it instead of making a new blade once every three levels) that has to bring across all the 3.X players out there.....of which I am one before anything is said about people being stuck in 1/2 ed.

 

[SadisticFishing]

One simple fix for a lot of problems would be to have an extra-planar Magic Item McDonalds.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am a 2nd edition Player, but a 3.x DM for a long time now. Maybe its partially my fault that i give out magca items in 3.x hat easily, but i don´t like my players die because their fort save is +3 at level 9 and they should save against a polymorph spell with DC 20... thats a bit unfair to say the least... (evn taking feats and putting a high scor into con brings that up to max +9 which is ok, but not for someone who took defensve feats...

But i think the bigger problem were games like baldurs gate, where magic was buyable everywhere. This combine with rules in 3.x suggeted the existence of magic shops.

And reall miss the magic of magic items, and the magic of the game as a whole. ADnD was not perfect, but it had a charm which heavy rules can never provide...

 

[UngeheuerLich]

One simple fix for a lot of problems would be to have an extra-planar Magic Item McDonalds.

I think that is called city of brass (see: Worlds and Monsters)

 

[Scipio202]

In terms of level and old vs. new items, I believe WotC has suggested that items' importance is less in terms of numerical bonuses, but more in that they offer you new powers. E.g. a longsword that gives you a per-encounter power to do 2[W] + 6 cold damage, or something. Diverse powers are less easily obsoleted rather than pure numerical bonuses - you do new things rather than strictly *better* things. So you don't need to sell off that sword you got 6 levels ago - you may need it's cold damage powers against the occasional fire monster, even though your new sword from this level is your "go to" weapon. Also, since items provide options more than stats, running low vs. high magic settings won't screw up power level math as much - the game isn't assuming "standard" magic bonuses for the party to be able to survive facing that Bodak.

Of course you'd hope something like encumbrance rules keep your PCs from walking around with 50 different weapons.

 

[Just Another User]

The problem with 1/2e is that, in the name of balance, it was nigh-impossible for players to make even simple magic item -- remember what it took to make a scroll of protection from petrification in 1e? -- but the world was still full of them, found in random treasure hordes or piled on every monster in a module. Which made me wonder -- who the hell is making all these things? Where do they find the time? If it takes a good six months to make a scroll, how come there's so many lying forgotten in dungeons?

3e solved the issue (mostly) with the wealth-by-level guidelines. It will be interesting to see how rituals are balanced.

The obvious answer is that once upon a time there was a simpler recipe to create those scrolls, but it was forgotten in some catastropihc event in the past. The point is in 2ed, rules are so open that the DM could make create magic items as easy or as complicated as he wanted. To say that, for example, to create a +1 sword you forge it under the light of a full moon while reciting a certain non-magical prayer to the god of war was perfectly fine by the RAW. But then during the orcish invasions of the 13XX the litany, that was jealoulsy kept by a influential order of blacksmiths was lost when the last of them was klled with his apprentice, and now you must make +1 swords the hard way, using iron from the giants guarded mines of mount Gursh and temper them with the sacred waters of the remote river Salich.
3.x is easier on the GM, but also boring, put gold here, put xps there and after a while you have your magic items.
I'd like if 4e take a page out of 2nd edition, but I think it will be more like "pay gold for...uh, something, do your ritual and there, have your magic item." I mean is not fun if you can't have exactly the magic item you want, and 4e is all about the fun, isn't it?

 

[Just Another User]

Hah, that gives me an idea. Suppose the PCs sold some item that was rather powerful, but they didn't have any use for it. Now imagine their distress when some recurring (or new) villain turns out to be the buyer! Nothing like the insult of equipping your enemies!

Anyway, as for the magic item system in general, I doubt that many magic items will scale naturally with level.

They scale automatically with level only in a world with no magical item.
Ok, technically in that case is the PC getting the bonuses, not the item, but what is the difference?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The obvious answer is that once upon a time there was a simpler recipe to create those scrolls, but it was forgotten in some catastropihc event in the past. The point is in 2ed, rules are so open that the DM could make create magic items as easy or as complicated as he wanted. To say that, for example, to create a +1 sword you forge it under the light of a full moon while reciting a certain non-magical prayer to the god of war was perfectly fine by the RAW. But then during the orcish invasions of the 13XX the litany, that was jealoulsy kept by a influential order of blacksmiths was lost when the last of them was klled with his apprentice, and now you must make +1 swords the hard way, using iron from the giants guarded mines of mount Gursh and temper them with the sacred waters of the remote river Salich.
3.x is easier on the GM, but also boring, put gold here, put xps there and after a while you have your magic items.
I'd like if 4e take a page out of 2nd edition, but I think it will be more like "pay gold for...uh, something, do your ritual and there, have your magic item." I mean is not fun if you can't have exactly the magic item you want, and 4e is all about the fun, isn't it?

i must remember the moonshine thingy when the next plyer asks where all those swords came from.

4e looks like it already took already some pages out of 2nd (Lvl 21 - 30).

And take your gold and buy something is improvement from: deduct x gold from our char sheet...

 

[Syrsuro]

I, personally, am glad to see this change.

When the 3.0 rules came out, my immediate reaction was to focus on two things:

First - level advancement seemed too quick. But that isn't the point here....

Second - I really disliked the magic item creation rules being spelled out and so easy (for those with the right feats). And, as much as I dislike the proliferation of magic shops, I accept that they are a logical consequence of it being so easy to make magic items.

(Of course, after several years of 3.x, I became focused on entirely different issues).

So with both the lack magic shops (only natural, imho) and (presumeably - although we don't know the details) the greater difficulty in making items, I expect to be happier. I have always seen magic items as more 'relics of some earlier era', not something being churned out enmasse by every tom, dick and harry high level character with nothing better to do.

Of course - since I prefer my own setting (when not getting roped into DMing Living Whatever) I can always leave the magic shops out. But if the rules specify certain conditions (tons of magic, easy creation, magic shops on every street corner, etc.), that pushes player expectation in the same direction. Not only that, but easy creation, excessive magic and magic shops all tie together. If you assume easy creation, then it is only logical to expect to find lots of items. And if the players find lots of magic items, they expect to be able to buy and sell that magic. Which means all those +1 swords, etc. inevitably lose their appeal as 'magic' and instead become pointy cash (and are actually, imho, even less exciting to find than their equivalent value in coins).

But if you make item creation harder, this logically leads to their being less magic to find. And if they find less (pointless - or pointy) magic, you eliminate the need for those magic shops.

And personally, I blame the whole shebang on the insistance that NPCs have to follow the same creation rules as the PCs. If you give the PCs a (hypothetical) +2 to their attacks and defense from their magic items (and it is fun to find magic items), you need to counterbalance that somehow in the NPCs to make them competitive. Which means that every NPC that the players meet effectively has to be equipped roughly competively with the PCs. Which means that once the PCs have +2 gear, they will keep finding +1 and +2 gear on their opponents (and an occasional +3 that really counts as treasure rather than pointy cash). And thus will need something to do with those items.

But if you can give the NPCs the ability to challenge the PCs through some other means (whatever that means is - and simply giving them the appropriate bonus by fiat is the simplest way), then magic becomes something rare, and thus something noteworthy and memorable. And stops being the junk you toss in your backpack and haul back to town.

For those that object to this idea (and I'm sure there will be some) - consider two encounters. Encounter 1: An NPC built according to the dictates of 3.5, and Encounter 2: The same NPC, stripped of his (pointless) magic (but perhaps still keeping an item or two that the players might actually have a use for), but with his stats artficially inflated to match the statistics of Encounter 2 (i.e. - you take away a +2 sword and give him a +2 to hit and damage, etc.), and then provided with a treasure chest holding gems worth as much as the players would have gotten when they sold the pointless magic. Essentially the same combat (aside from a minor difference if they players disarmed the NPC or if they have access to antimagic) and the same end result (aside from the fact that they don't have to convert the sword to cash, they can just horde the gems). And personally -- Encounter 2 sounds more appealing to me (I don't know why, but I'd rather find 1000 gp worth of gems than a +1 sword (assuming I already have a +2 sword - although that could just be me). And as a DM I prefer encounter 2, because it means I don't have to either have magic shops or create an artifical justification for why there aren't any.

As an aside: Since I don't believe in magic shops, and yet players DO occasionally get stuff they want to sell: If the players take the item to your typical market in town I have always taken the tack that they are happy to buy stuff. For what they think its worth....

"Suuuure that's a magic sword. Uh, huh. Right. Tell ya what. I can see that its a fine weapon. Masterwork quality. I'll buy it for 200 gp. You want more? Go find someone who needs a 'magic sword'. Good luck..." (And if the players want to get 'the real value' out of the sword, that's exactly what they'll have to do.)

Carl

 

[Leatherhead]

So people to the people that hate magic Wall-Marts, but crafting magic items is ok (especially if it is hard):

If a magic item shop existed that only operated only on custom orders, meaning the item is made after it was payed for, rather than the owner stockpiling them for off the shelf sales, would that sit better with you?