Magical Threshold for PCs: Some Crunch, Some Fluff

[WhatGravitas]

This only thing I'm having trouble reconciling is why somebody would commision an item with a Memory Item descriptor in the first place. At first it has no benefits to the weilder. As the weilder gets better, the item picks this up, but isn't the wielder still so proficient that the item offers no additional benefit? How does the item become better than the person using it so as to be worth carrying? Maybe I'm missing something here.

When I've read that, I got the same impression - the crunch doesn't match the flufff - though the fluff is cool.

Though that is easily fixed by saying that you only get your "awesome bonus" while wielding a memory item. This would attach them more to their weapons - without producing the need to give up weapons because better weapons were discovered.

Cheers, LT.

 

[SlagMortar]

Or you could make all masterwork weapons "memory" weapons. If you don't like the idea of magic sprining out of the air, perhaps as the warrior and his weapon grow in fame, the fear and awe of the populace creates a sort of subconscious ritual that draws magic from the world and imprints it onto the weapon. The more fame and skill the warrior acquires, the more powerful his weapon becomes.

 

[Thornir Alekeg]

When I've read that, I got the same impression - the crunch doesn't match the flufff - though the fluff is cool.

Though that is easily fixed by saying that you only get your "awesome bonus" while wielding a memory item. This would attach them more to their weapons - without producing the need to give up weapons because better weapons were discovered.

Cheers, LT.

Take it one step further (although it may be too complicated to keep track of), the weapon actually slows the "awesome bonus" progression. The farmer kid who picks up the weapon of the legendary hero can become a better swordsman, but because of his reliance on the weapon, he does not grow in his own abilities as fast as his farmer neighbor who only has an ordinary sword.

 

[Engilbrand]

I like the idea of letting these things happen innately. It's already a reality infused with magic. Instead of spending money to improve it, just let it improve as you do.
Any time there's a major event and you hit a new special level, it gains a power. Maybe it even gains the power during the major event. It would give weapons, armor and other things some special flavor. They would be small facets of the character.
In the future, someone can pick up that item and, over time, it starts to reawaken grants those abilities.
You don't need to specifically create "Memory Items". Just let it happen naturally. Or say that a few were created by some gods to pick up memories and experiences just so that the gods could see how people reacted when these popped back up later.

 

[Rex Blunder]

Heck, make all items memory items.

This fits in really well with natural human superstition. Will having Jimi Hendrix's guitar make us a better guitarist? Of course nnnn...well, we kinda secretly think it will.

If you somehow recover the normal arrow that critted the ancient dragon to death, that arrow should be an Arrow of Dragonslaying. St. Cuthbert's Mace isn't magical because he had it enchanted, it's magical because it's the mace he used.

Real-world medieval people pretty much thought this was how saintly relics worked.

 

[JohnSnow]

I like it. But something bugs me. Not sure what...

I kind of like the heroic bonuses, and I too like the notion of a young kid finding a mighty blade and using it to become a great warrior. That has a very Feist/Stackpole vibe to it, which I like (the Blade of Ashen-Shugar or Temmer, the sword of legend).

What I'm not sure about is whether the kid should be able to unlock all of the weapon's potential right away. It almost seems to me that each power (beyond the basic "magic device things") should take some time to unlock. That way, the kid gets some benefits from acquiring a fabled magic item, but not ALL of them, at least not right away.

I almost want to set it so that items grant less of a bonus to those of insufficient level. So that while the battle gear of Ashen-Shugar is supremely useful to a Level 2 fighter, he doesn't get the full benefit right away. But, in my mind, that item should still provide a substantial benefit to the 20th-level warrior. I'm just not sure how to reconcile those contrasting approaches...

Part of me says that only a mighty warrior should be able to wield a great magical sword, but another part of me says that Conan should be able to kick butt with the tarnished blade he yanks off a city guard. What's the threshold that lets high level fighters be awesome with any old blade but still makes it beneficial to own a magic sword? I just don't know...


(Aside: Clearly you've either recently re-read Feist's Riftwar or you remember it very well...)

 

[Irda Ranger]

This only thing I'm having trouble reconciling is why somebody would commision an item with a Memory Item descriptor in the first place. At first it has no benefits to the weilder.

It's still a Masterwork item when you first commission it, so you get whatever that's worth in 4E.

As the weilder gets better, the item picks this up, but isn't the wielder still so proficient that the item offers no additional benefit? How does the item become better than the person using it so as to be worth carrying? Maybe I'm missing something here.

Yeah, you missed the part where I said it aquires the properties inherant to all magical items (enhanced hardness and HP, glows under certain circumstances, overcomes certain resistances, etc.) and where I mentioned that it would acquire non-numerical abilities which complement the bearer's powers and beliefs (such as Erais' mace becoming a Radiant weapon, but +1d6 Flaming also perhaps. Whatever is standard for, e.g., a 17th level sword). These effects are subtler than standard D&D, but that's what I'm going for. But there are benefits.

In effect, the Big Six were cut down to the Big Three by 4E, and I've knocked Three down to Zero. But just like 4E still has Misc Items, I do too. But weapons and cloaks are more like boots now: they provide options more often than flat numerical advantage.

If I'm right then a magic weapon like this become an act of pure ego, or deisre for a family legacy, but if the bearer is killed and the item looted,

Actually, it's mostly an act of selflessness. Most of the benefits accrue to those who follow you, not you, so it's your heirs who really benefit.

it could be used against his family and friends. It might be better to rely on one's own abilities than to chance such a thing falling into the wrong hands.

Do you think a sword that actually has some of the memories and personality of its former bearer imprinted on it would ever allow itself to be used in this way?

 

[Stormtalon]

When I've read that, I got the same impression - the crunch doesn't match the flufff - though the fluff is cool.

Though that is easily fixed by saying that you only get your "awesome bonus" while wielding a memory item. This would attach them more to their weapons - without producing the need to give up weapons because better weapons were discovered.

Cheers, LT.

You can also add the requirement that only Memory Items can acquire "extra" abilities, like Frost, Flame, etc. How that would happen should be up to the DM: be it a Ritual, happenstance, etc.

 

[Irda Ranger]

Though that is easily fixed by saying that you only get your "awesome bonus" while wielding a memory item. This would attach them more to their weapons

Note the orange text. That is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. I want items that provide interesting stories and options, but are numerically not important. The King's Champion is so damn awesome he's just as deadly with common steel as when he's wielding Lapp Jornir. He just prefers Lapp Jornir because (i) it resists Sunder better, (ii) it glows when people intending the King personal harm are near, and (iii) once per day it allows him to Teleport up to one mile to the King's side.

 

[ruleslawyer]

The only "problem" with that system (Thornir's) is that you're on a slippery slope to the scenario in which having a magical weapon confers no bonus over not having one.

Irda Ranger: The "Memory Item" flavor you're proposing seems pretty much in line with some of the stuff in Weapons of Legacy... or at least a subset thereof. I actually quite like it from a narrative perspective, since it replicates Campbell's convention of the hero's magic weapon in the game: that is, Durendal is attributed its "unbreakable" quality because of its relationship with Roland, Excalibur becomes symbolic of Arthur's own military might and his ability to heal national differences, etc.

Of course, as with many flavor elements, it's something that seems rather campaign-specific (and arguably campaign-determinative), although you addressed this in your reference to an implied setting. I would certainly love to have something like this, but wouldn't mind if the DMG also included a few other flavor options for how magic items "work."

My own thought is that I will continue to play without numerical bonuses of any sort from magical weapons when making the transition from Iron Heroes to 4e. IMO, it makes more sense to give magic items only basic equipment bonuses (higher hardness, hp, and break DCs), and to put everything else into the realm of powers. For certain DMs who don't like quasi-magical martial powers, for instance, one could put stuff like the fire-related Desert Wind maneuvers (or whatever their 4e equivalent might be) into the weapon rather than the character. Just assume that such weapons can be imbued with those powers in off-stage rituals, or offer weapons imbued with the appropriate powers in a treasure hoard, depending on the style of play you want.

IMO, flat +x bonuses should just go into the character, not his stuff. Flat bonuses lack flavor; they screw up the power curve if doled out or acquired piecemeal; and to my mind, they duplicate nothing in fantasy except D&D itself. Making Andúril a sword with a ghost touch and an undead command power seem to me much more in line with LotR than the sword making it easier for Aragorn to hit orcs.