Magical Threshold for PCs: Some Crunch, Some Fluff

JohnSnow said:
What I'm not sure about is whether the kid should be able to unlock all of the weapon's potential right away. It almost seems to me that each power (beyond the basic "magic device things") should take some time to unlock. That way, the kid gets some benefits from acquiring a fabled magic item, but not ALL of them, at least not right away.
I hear what you're saying, but I don't think it's really a concern. For one, how often do you plan on letting a 2nd Level PC find the sword of an Epic Paladin? I'm thinking its infrequent enough that you can balance with with story penalties (e.g., enemies more appropriate for Epic Paladins, not you) and increased encounter difficulty. For another thing, I like the idea that NPCs might find the sword of an Epic Anti-Paladin and get completely Enthralled by the will and memories of the sword, becoming a real force for evil in the world.


JohnSnow said:
I almost want to set it so that items grant less of a bonus to those of insufficient level. So that while the battle gear of Ashen-Shugar is supremely useful to a Level 2 fighter, he doesn't get the full benefit right away. But, in my mind, that item should still provide a substantial benefit to the 20th-level warrior. I'm just not sure how to reconcile those contrasting approaches...
The n00b gets the +x, the veteran unlocks the options appropriate for his level (the Radiant, the +1d6 Flaming, etc.).


JohnSnow said:
(Aside: Clearly you've either recently re-read Feist's Riftwar or you remember it very well...)
Not recently, but often.
 

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ruleslawyer said:
IMO, flat +x bonuses should just go into the character, not his stuff. Flat bonuses lack flavor; they screw up the power curve if doled out or acquired piecemeal; and to my mind, they duplicate nothing in fantasy except D&D itself. Making Andúril a sword with a ghost touch and an undead command power seem to me much more in line with LotR than the sword making it easier for Aragorn to hit orcs.

I'm inclined to agree with this line of reasoning.

However, I feel compelled to point out that Andúril was probably more flaming than anything. It was symbolic as the Sword of the West, and well-remembered by Sauron, but, at least in the books, the Army of the Dead followed Aragorn because he had the banner of the Kings of Gondor, not the sword.

I realize PJ made it all about the sword, but what kind of Tolkien-phile would I be if I didn't point out the difference?

Near as I can figure, Sting, Glamdring and Orcrist were "goblin-bane" blades that also detected their presence. Based on its use, one might guess that "Sting" had a thing against spiders too, but I think that's probably just a coincidence...

Hmmm...the more I think about it, the more I agree with you. As iconic as the bonuses to weapons are, it would be more in keeping with traditional fantasy if we stick the straight numeric bonuses on the PCs and give their gear the weird situational abilities. So a ranger gets to designate any foe as the target for his "quarry" ability, and at 4th level, he gets a built-in +1 to his attacks, but he might also have a goblin-bane blade (that does, say, extra damage on a crit).

I'm liking this idea. I think I'll make the numerical bonuses inherent to the PCs, but tie the special abilities to the gear itself.

And of course, exceptions will have to be made for artifacts. :]
 
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I really like this idea, and it should make some of the ideas I had for my 4e campaign much easier to implement. I may have to tweak it somewhat, since I will, in fact, have the PCs going into the tombs of much higher level characters early on (they're special in that they're not barred from entering certain ancient holy ruins, unlike everything else in the world).

Some possible modifications, that might work in some games better than others:

Whenever you attune a memory weapon and/or use it long enough that your memories/bonuses get impressed upon it, it serves as a sympathetic connection to you. It's unwise to pass it on before your death, as wizards that wish you harm may use it to cast spells on you at great range. This may just be an adventurer superstition, or there may be rituals to use the attuned weapons against their owners, but either way it should cut down on constantly powering up new weapons to award to henchmen.

Pre-owned memory weapons may require unearthing the deeds of their owners and living up to their legacy to reward their full powers. That +5 Radiant Holy Avenger of the epic paladin wielded by the 1st level paladin may be slightly better than a normal weapon appropriate to his level, and gains its powers back as she finds his writings in tombs and proves through trials that she is following his path. This re-acquisition of powers should be faster than getting a fresh sword and impressing new powers into it.

Newly forged weapons give the player much more leeway in suggesting powers. DMs should always be on the lookout for interesting scenarios to power up the sword. If the player wants it Flaming, there should be an opportunity to stab it directly into the heart of a red dragon in a heroic moment. This leeway is imparted on legacy weapons once the PC has passed the power of the previous owner and truly made the weapon his own.

Weapons can turn on their owners, subtly or overtly, if the owner loses faith or otherwise dramatically changes his personality. The epic paladin sword might not be the remains of a dead hero, but the last legacy of a fallen knight that cast it aside on taking up a blade more suited to a blackguard. And, with the attunement idea, it can serve as a tool to talk the blackguard back from the brink, or bypass his unholy defenses.
 

Nice Work, Irda Ranger. Your ideas intrigue me. :)

The only thing I would change is to grant the Awesome Bonus every 3 levels instead of 4. My instincts tell me that this progression will correspond to what magical bonus PC's are expected to have.

For example, I think that PCs are expected to acquire +1 weapons/implements/armor/etc. by 3rd level, +2 by 6th level, all the way to +10 by 30th level.

Why do I think this? Well, I like the symmetry of magical items going up to +10 by level 30, and if you assume that PCs do not get a bonus to attacks/damage per 1/2 level like in SW Saga, then this progression would compensate for that.
 

Irda Ranger said:
Note the orange text. That is the exact opposite of what I am trying to achieve. I want items that provide interesting stories and options, but are numerically not important. The King's Champion is so damn awesome he's just as deadly with common steel as when he's wielding Lapp Jornir. He just prefers Lapp Jornir because (i) it resists Sunder better, (ii) it glows when people intending the King personal harm are near, and (iii) once per day it allows him to Teleport up to one mile to the King's side.
Ah, I see. I like your idea better than what I've written. :)

Cheers, LT.
 

Hmmm...the more I think about it, the more I agree with you. As iconic as the bonuses to weapons are, it would be more in keeping with traditional fantasy if we stick the straight numeric bonuses on the PCs and give their gear the weird situational abilities. So a ranger gets to designate any foe as the target for his "quarry" ability, and at 4th level, he gets a built-in +1 to his attacks, but he might also have a goblin-bane blade (that does, say, extra damage on a crit).

This is the way I would go. It neatly addresses the issue of a farm kid having all the properites of the weapon right away. If great hero had +3 awesome bonus, flaming, and goblin detection, then his farm kid heir could start with +0 awesome, flaming, and goblin detection. If the kid survives, he can grow his own awesome bonus.
 

Rex Blunder said:
Heck, make all items memory items.

This fits in really well with natural human superstition. Will having Jimi Hendrix's guitar make us a better guitarist? Of course nnnn...well, we kinda secretly think it will.

If you somehow recover the normal arrow that critted the ancient dragon to death, that arrow should be an Arrow of Dragonslaying. St. Cuthbert's Mace isn't magical because he had it enchanted, it's magical because it's the mace he used.

Real-world medieval people pretty much thought this was how saintly relics worked.

This is how these items (called "Covenant Items") worked in Fantasy Flight's Midnight. You didn't have to spend special feats to unlock an item's powers. They just got released when you hit a certain level.

It seems that in Midnight, the hero usually has to die with the item for it to become a covenant item. Which would explain why they exist, but aren't exactly common. But how it works is like this:

At Level 1, your item is a masterwork sword. It's nice, and it never seems to dull or break, but it's just a good sword. When you hit level 5, it is, all of the sudden, a +1 sword. It gains extra abilities as you increase in level.

Personally, I like the notion of skill related bonuses (like defense and attack bonuses) being tied to the character himself, rather than his gear. On the other hand, I maybe could buy AC and damage being tied to the weapon itself. And of course, "magic" weapons and armor should be different in some unusual way - perhaps it's magically made, uses a weird material, or something else.

I think I'll have to wait until I see the default rules before I start tweaking.
 

Samhaine said:
Whenever you attune a memory weapon and/or use it long enough that your memories/bonuses get impressed upon it, it serves as a sympathetic connection to you. It's unwise to pass it on before your death, as wizards that wish you harm may use it to cast spells on you at great range. This may just be an adventurer superstition, or there may be rituals to use the attuned weapons against their owners, but either way it should cut down on constantly powering up new weapons to award to henchmen.
The orange text was a problem I was aware of, but hadn't found a solution for. I like yours, so you may consider it yoinked. I'll probably adapt it a bit, but the theme of not leaving your Memory Items just lying around is a good one.


Samhaine said:
Pre-owned memory weapons may require unearthing the deeds of their owners and living up to their legacy to reward their full powers. That +5 Radiant Holy Avenger of the epic paladin wielded by the 1st level paladin may be slightly better than a normal weapon appropriate to his level, and gains its powers back as she finds his writings in tombs and proves through trials that she is following his path. This re-acquisition of powers should be faster than getting a fresh sword and impressing new powers into it.
I understand the sentiment, especially from a game balance point of view. I would say that Memory Items have a potential level equal to the level of the bearer that created him, but that the realized level cannot exceed the current bearer's level by more than 3. So, if a 25th level Paladin dies and leaves her sword behind, it's potentially a 25th level item. In the hands of a 6th level Paladin though it only displays 9th level abilities. This is still better than a "blank" memory item which always equals your level.



And now for some Pure Fluff: The Immortality of Emperor Tsang.

It is known by all that the land of Porren is ruled by the thoroughly evil Emperor Tsang, the Tyrant of the West, and has been for nearly 600 years. The nature of his long life has been a closely guarded secret, but new details describing a dark ritual known only to the Asmodean High Templars provides a clue as to how he may have achieved it. This ritual is called the Entombed Mind.

The ritual requires five High Templars, at least two items of Memory with Sentience imprinted by the same person, a willing subject, and a year of time (from one Longest Night to the next). The subject is clad in the Sentient items and then entombed alive. For one year he remains in the tomb, sustained by magic, while the High Templars pray at the entrance. Over the course of the year the Sentience of the items slowly consume his mind until almost nothing of the original personality remains, only memory. On the anniversary of his entombment the seals on the tomb are broken and the Bearer of the Items emerges with the memory of centuries and his full power.

GM Knowledge: Emperor Tsang is a 27th level Cleric of Asmodeus. Like the King of England in the good old days he is the head of both the state and the church. He has three items of memory: his warhammer, his shield and his helm. They are all 27th level sentient items. He only needs two of them to reincarnate, but he of course guards all three of them ferociously. He also once had a suit of plate armor, which is a 25th level sentient suit of armor, but it has been lost for almost three centuries now and he cannot find it with any magic. He secretly fears the power of whatever being could successfully hide it from him for so long, as well as their plans for keeping it (see Samhaine's idea above).

Tsang is assisted in running church and state with the help of 12 High Templars of Asmodeus (clerics of at least 11th level). The Rite which creates a High Templar is overseen by Tsang himself, and while it grants certain benefits it also extracts a price. Upon Tsang's death the souls of the High Templars are immediately sucked out of them and hidden away in a magical preserve known only to Tsang. Tsang has assured his minions that the preserve is somewhere in the Abyss, and that the magic protecting it from being raided by demons must be renewed every three years or so. This assures a prompt reincarnation, as they only get their souls back when he emerges from the Tomb.

Tsang is guarded by a hand-picked guard of the 50 most fanatically loyal members of the Sajdukar, his elite Legion. Upon Tsangs death they contest among themselves (sometimes lethally) for the honor of being made the next Tsang.
 

Great idea, Irda. And some nice extras from the rest.
I like the idea, if I want to go for a low magic item campaign (and I am not sure yet) I will def use it..possible ===YOINK===.
I would add that you may only have 1 item per tier (or maybe 1 +1 item per tier) attuned to you at any time. That would stop the hand me downs. But I would definitely include the danger of loosing an item to an enemy. When you die the items hold onto a bit of your essence and memories enabling others to use them as you once did... and other dead guys revenge/quest/etc story hooks!
 

Thornir Alekeg said:
Some really interesting ideas here.

This only thing I'm having trouble reconciling is why somebody would commision an item with a Memory Item descriptor in the first place. At first it has no benefits to the weilder. As the weilder gets better, the item picks this up, but isn't the wielder still so proficient that the item offers no additional benefit? How does the item become better than the person using it so as to be worth carrying? Maybe I'm missing something here.


The fluff for the bonus to attack or damage could be that the weapon begins to anticipate your actions. If your character commonly uses a certain parry against a downward slash from an enemy, the Memory Item will begin doing this on its own. In the heat of battle, anything that could quicken your character's reaction time would increase his overall combat ability.
 

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