Magical Weapons as Implements

[Atreides]

So one of my PC's is a sorcerer with a +2 Vicious Quarterstaff.

When casting spells he can use the staff as an implement, gaining +2 to hit and damage rolls but does not gain the proficiency bonus from the staff.

My question is in regards to Vicious - on a critical hit with a spell, does the Sorcerer roll an additional 2d12 instead of 2d6 damage?

Thanks!

 

[Flipguarder]

I would say its one or the other

If you crit on a spell while using it as an implement and get extra damage than you dont get that extra damage when you crit with a melee attack while using it.

Idk what the actual rules are sorry to disappoint, this just makes the most sense to me from what I've seen.

 

[Mirtek]

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

So yes, using a +2 Vicious Quarterstaff as an implement would do +2d12 damage on a crit. However note that there is quite a debate about whether quarterstaffs can be used as implements at all. The argument goes that just because the staff implement can double as a quarterstaff, it doesn't mean that in reverse a quarterstaff can be used as a staff implement.

Anyway, whenver you can definately use a weapon as an implement (swordmage, monk, sorcerer) the three things listed above do apply to all implement attacks.

 

[Trevelyan]

As an aside, he'd be much better off with a +2 Staff of Ruin. He gets +2d10 on a crit instead of +2d12, but he'll be getting +4 damage on every attack instead of just +2.

And since it's an impliment it avoids the whole issue.

 

[DracoSuave]

You gain any bonuses listed under Enhancement, Critical and Property.

So yes, using a +2 Vicious Quarterstaff as an implement would do +2d12 damage on a crit. However note that there is quite a debate about whether quarterstaffs can be used as implements at all. The argument goes that just because the staff implement can double as a quarterstaff, it doesn't mean that in reverse a quarterstaff can be used as a staff implement.

Quarterstaves are staves according to the weapon chart.
Staff is a -weapon- type.
Classes can have weapon types as implement types or even specific weapons. (q.v. sword mage, sorcerer)
Classes can have staff as an implement type.
No text differentiates between staff-as-implement and staff-as-weapon.

Therefore, quarterstaves can be treated as a staff implement, just like a fullblade can be treated as a heavy blade implement.

Also, if you're going for a crit-master Sorcerer, the -correct- answer is Daggermaster.

 

[Mirtek]

Quarterstaves are staves according to the weapon chart.
Staff is a -weapon- type.

I don't disagree with that. I am just pointing out that there are quite a lot people disagreeing and there are several 10+ pages thread on the wizards boards about this disagreement. It goes so far that if you pick a +2 staff weapon as a treasure bundle for your RPGA wizard you should be aware that you can't count on being able to use it as an implement at every RPGA table, because you could meet a DM who disagrees.

 

[Ryujin]

Quarterstaves are staves according to the weapon chart.
Staff is a -weapon- type.
Classes can have weapon types as implement types or even specific weapons. (q.v. sword mage, sorcerer)
Classes can have staff as an implement type.
No text differentiates between staff-as-implement and staff-as-weapon.

Therefore, quarterstaves can be treated as a staff implement, just like a fullblade can be treated as a heavy blade implement.

Also, if you're going for a crit-master Sorcerer, the -correct- answer is Daggermaster.

Using a Jagged Weapon as an implement is pretty good too, without the necessity of taking a specific Paragon Path. I'm going to see how that works out with my Feylock M/C to Grave Caller (Bard PP). At 16th level rolling two D20 to hit for encounter and daily powers, with possibility for crits on 19-20, should be interesting.

 

[Mengu]

The argument goes that just because the staff implement can double as a quarterstaff, it doesn't mean that in reverse a quarterstaff can be used as a staff implement.

The staff/quarterstaff issue is pretty confusing to me.

Can the staff implement be used as a quarterstaff if you are holding it in one hand?

Do you get staff of defense bonus if you're holding it in one hand? Can you still use the encounter ability one handed?

Can you get the bonuses from Staff Fighting if you hold the staff implement in one hand?

 

[Ryujin]

A staff implement can be used 1-handed. A staff weapon is a 2-handed weapon. A staff implement can be used as a staff weapon. I would say that a staff weapon can also be used as a staff implement, though this reverse isn't specified in the text. I would call it "logical extension."

 

[Trevelyan]

Can the staff implement be used as a quarterstaff if you are holding it in one hand?

No, because a quaterstaff is a two handed weapon.

Do you get staff of defense bonus if you're holding it in one hand? Can you still use the encounter ability one handed?

Yes, because both of these abilities relate to the staff as an impliment and not as a weapon.

Can you get the bonuses from Staff Fighting if you hold the staff implement in one hand?

I would suggest no, because Staff Fighting relates to the staff as a weapon, and more specifically as a double weapon.

Personally, my solution is to get Staff Fighting and a Staff of Ruin then wield the staff in two hands and reap the benefits (+3 damage per enhancement and +1 AC). You don't even need to invest in a second impliment at a potentially lower enhancement bonus.