Magus: "Staying the Course"

[Hunter In Darkness]

Then it's high time they got a divorce. The folks at Paizo are not some mystical experts on game design. Once upon a time they were that someone else. Sometimes they make mistakes.

I never said I found them unfoulable, I just happen to agree with them here. You need to look at how a class effects everything, it does not live in a bubble. What happens when you add full BAB and then it takes PRCs not meant for it? what about feats? how does it interact with things made when there was not a full BAB arcane class that could combine spells+ full melee? This class also counts as a fighter half his level, which can open up some unforeseen issues with full BAB

This is how those broken combos come about, someone doesn't look at the whole, they just get lazy and combine things without looking at how it can be used and abused when taking into account items not made for it to have it now may have.

 

[pawsplay]

Actually, now that I think about it, a magus with full bab could get nasty when combined with the eldritch knight. A magus 8/w2/EK10 would have 3rd level spells and 6th level spells and a base attack of +19. Now this is an actual reason to not have full base attack, and not because of their bab/hd/sl template. Though I suppose you could say magus and EKs are separate disciplines and entering one class prohibited entering the other.

EK means losing one level of caster and a lot of class abilities. While there are strong EK builds, EK is never going to bend the curve upwards. Even with full BAB, Magus/EK could never possibly do better than full BAB, full caster -1 level.

 

[ruemere]

There are quite a few interesting playtest threads at paizo.com (Rogue Eidolon's collection of playtest links).

I do heartily recommend withholding judgment on the class until one's given them a once over.

My own opinion is that, in addition to stuff written in my post above, the class requires more optimization to be viable (right items, 20 points of point-buy and good selection of spells). In other words, it's a bit too easy to build a weak character.

Finally, and this is very important - playtest is about getting stuff done right through several attempts and constructive feedback.
Also, compared to Summoner's first draft, Magus is much closer to viable class.
Jason himself remarked that he is going to make a few more changes. So, taking a chill pill and distancing oneself may be a good idea.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[Walking Dad]

There are quite a few interesting playtest threads at paizo.com (Rogue Eidolon's collection of playtest links).

I do heartily recommend withholding judgment on the class until one's given them a once over.

...

So, I have read most of them. The medium succesfull builds had mostly a cha and wis of 7. And still there was a problem with not hitting and the concentration checks to high to regulary use their powers. And they really quickly used up all their spells.

I judge the current mechanics as bad and hope that they will get better.

If I could make a suggestion:

- reduce their spells per day to below the bard. They are currently the only class that break the 'spontanous casters have more spells per day paradigm.

- give them the equivalent of a ki pool to power their arcana instead.

- no spell combat penalty at second level and bonus to bothe hitting and concentration on the higher levels.

And for the next playtest, please show some more of their touch spells.

 

[Starbuck_II]

In other words, it's a bit too easy to build a weak character.

Sounds like Magus is suffering from Monk/Fighter syndrome.

 

[Kaisoku]

Yeah, I think the two main issues that are impacting playability and "how fun it is to play" are the chances of failing are too high for too long on main features of the class, and everything tied to spell slots burns your resouces faster than any other class (especially since it can burn them for no result).

A rogue can sneak attack all day. A Monk gets full BAB when flurrying. You spend a Ki point, or a Bardic Performance round, or a Judgement... you get the effect.

The Magus gets 3 spells to cast at 2nd level (2+bonus). That's three chances at pulling off his "thing" (Spell Combat). Compare to a bard, for instance, who can (among all his skill benefits, etc), cast the same number of spells per day, but also do 6 + Cha rounds of his "thing", without having to deal with chances of failure to the point of losing the use.

___

If I were to make changes to the Magus, this is what I"d do:

Proficiencies: The Magus gains Medium armor proficiency, and can cast Magus spells in medium armor without penalty. Grant heavy armor proficiency and casting at 7th level.
He's getting Heavy armor proficiency eventually. Why make a Magus dependent on light armor and Dex for the first half of his career? It's like this class changes into a completely different concept halfway through leveling.

Spell Strike: The magus may make a weapon attack with a weapon on hand when casting a touch attack spell, instead of a touch attack or unarmed strike.
Also, the magus gains the Arcane Strike feat. When using the feat, he gains a further +1 damage that is increased at 5th level, and every 5 levels.
It's dependent on the swift action, so you can't use quickened spells with this (and various other things). Tying the bonus damage bonus to Magus levels means you can't dip 1 level to get the full benefit.

Spell Combat: At 2nd level, the magus can incorporate a flurry of magical gestures with his attacks, allowing him to cast a spell before or after a full attack with a one-handed or lighter weapon.
The magus is treated as having a base attack bonus equal to his level when attacking in this manner (for both his weapon as well as any touch or ray attacks from a spell cast), however all attacks for the round are made at -2.
This gives the needed "push" for extra attacks and slightly higher attack bonus at later levels. The spellcasting is no longer tied to needing Defensive Casting, which means if the magus 5' steps he doesn't need to roll his check for failure. Or if he gets displacement.. or mirror image, etc.
So Combat Casting becomes "nice", but no longer "necessary". It also means you can focus on buff spells, not have to devote everything to Int (like most other casting in melee classes).
Also, making it "one-handed or lighter weapons" means you can do things lke... unarmed strikes... throwing weapons... firing a crossbow one-handed, etc. A little more flexible in weapon options.

Arcane Defense: At 3rd level, the magus can hold arcane power to fuel a defensive spell at a moment's notice. The magus may memorize a single spell of range personal, or creature touched that has a duration measured in rounds or longer. The magus is the sole recipient of the spell's effects, even if the spell would normally allow more than one target.
The magus may use Arcane Defense a number of rounds per day equal to twice his magus level, plus Int modifier. Activating the spell's effect requires a move action, and can be maintained as a free action on subsequent rounds.
The magus decides what spell to hold for this ability when memorizing spells, and is treated as a memorized spell for purposes of spells and abilities that can affect or detect them.
At 9th level, the magus may memorize two spells for Arcane Defense, and may activate both simultaneously, although he uses two rounds per use in this manner. At 15th level, the magus may memorize a third spell, and may activate all three at once, using an additional round to activate and maintain (3 total).
The Magus is likely going to be in melee most of the game, so it'd be silly to assume he's not going to need to use resources to buff himself up.
If this is assumed, instead of giving a bunch of spell slots he can try and go nova with, give him something that will specifically be used for this purpose.
Note that a ranged combat Magus (if one can be made with throwing weapons, or possibly an archetype that lets you use bows), then you can still buff up with Cat's Grace, Protection from Arrows, or something else. It leaves things nicely open.
I checked through the spell list.. limiting to personal and "creature touched" keeps things in a nicely defensive/limited range, and measuring in rounds or longer keeps out the True Strike every round scariness.

*Edit* Oh, and reduce his spells per day to non-spontaneous casting (maxing 4 per spell level). Less nova, more of what he needs.
*2nd Edit* Since the Arcane Strike feat is untyped damage, I dropped it down... too good at +1d6. Also, I forgot his spell list. He needs to get early access to some spells (like the Bard does with a bunch of buff and control spells). Perhaps early access to some of the damage and defensive spells (including granting access to some 7th or 8th level spells at 6th level, like polar ray, etc).
It just seems silly that only one of his spell levels can take advantage of his 20 caster levels (nothing below chain lightning has higher than 15 dice damage for cap).
__
Then you could easily add a Magus Arcana addition to give elemental damage options on the Spell Strike ability.
And even a feat for additional rounds of Arcane Defense usage (or an additional spell?).

I feel this would let a 3/4 BAB, 6 spell level class compete against the full BAB combat powerhouses, and the 9th spell level world shakers.

 

[Skeld]

Without it, he'll be slightly better than a multiclass fighter/wizard.

This is the entire point of the Magus and the reason it exists: players were asking Paizo for a Fighter/Wizard that didn't require them to multiclass Fighter/Wizard. If the Magus is comparable in power (even better if he's slightly more powerful than) a Fighter/Wizard of the same level, then they've mostly achieved their goal once they smooth out some of the rough spots and get the spell list updated with new goodies.

-Skeld

 

[xXxTheBeastxXx]

Compiled list of suggestions

I, as of yet, haven't gotten a chance to playtest the magus (though I will very soon), but I have read over the playtests of several other posters (everyone on this thread and linked threads, plus others) and decided to compose a "compiled list of suggestions." I hope this helps. And please, if you see something wrong here, please critique. It's the reason playtests even reach us.




Magus Suggestions


Combat Casting: At level 2, the Magus gains combat casting as a bonus feat, whether he possesses the prerequisites or not.
-The reason for this is that, with the magus’s signature ability, Spell Combat, he must cast defensively, and takes a penalty on the check. It’s very hard to cast defensively at low levels anyway, so this is normally considered a feat tax, and should be given at level 1 or 2, when he gains spell combat.


Spell Combat Modification: If the Magus uses a spell with a range of touch or personal, then the penalty to attack rolls is reduced to -2 (as if using a light weapon in your off-hand with two-weapon fighting) and then reduced to a -0 penalty at 8th level.
-The reason for this is that spell combat’s major hindrance is a -4 penalty to attack rolls. From what has been stated, the strategy pretty much revolves around either hitting with your weapon or succeeding on casting your spell, whereas it should be the ability to do both. That’s the point of Spell Combat, to marry these two concepts instead of penalizing them so much that it’s easier just to be a wizard.


Ability Reassignment: The bonus feats, medium armor, heavy armor, and fighter training abilities should be reassigned to be part of the Magus Arcana selection (with minimum levels equivalent to when you would normally get them). In addition, Magus Arcana should be given at every odd level instead of every 3 (including level 1).
-This feels more personal than anything else, and I think speaks to the style of the class. Some people have suggested putting the armor proficiencies in the magus arcana slot, and I agree. I think they’re just abilities that eat up slots on its table. In addition, they really ruin some of the flavor of the class (it essentially switches from a lightly armored mobility warrior to a heavy-armor spell-tank midway through its progression. That should be optional, not required). The same goes for the fighter training, which just feels tacked on. Forcing one class to emulate another is no way to build a base class (great way to build an archetype, though). As for the bonus feats, I felt that they would be better served in the Magus Arcana slot to free up space for more original abilities. Besides, with all the complaining about weak-sauce low-level magus arcana powers, wouldn’t it be nice to just be able to choose a feat?


Arcane Pool: The magus gains a number of Arcane Points equal to his level + his intelligence modifier. The magus can spend these points in place of sacrificing a prepared spell for his magus arcana abilities (one point per level of the spell that would normally be sacrificed). He cannot spend more points than his highest level spell available to cast. In addition, he can spend 2 points per spell level to emulate casting a prepared spell for use with his spellstrike.
-This has been voiced quite a bit. The magus needs to be able to use his abilities more often, and they all suck spells. Ergo, an arcane pool. He sucks up his points instead of his spells. Can he still expend a prepared spell if he feels the need? Yeah, sure, but it makes it an option instead of a necessity (maybe a last-ditch effort thing). At first, I was going to only give it ½ level + int, but then decided to add in the spellstrike bit. With that, he can now use one of his signature abilities more often and still be able to use his magus arcana powers.




As it stands, if these changes were implemented, the table would look like this:


1 Arcane pool, cantrips, magus arcana, spellstrike
2 Combat casting, spell combat
3 Magus arcana
4 Arcane weapon
5 Magus arcana
6
7 Magus arcana
8 Improved spell combat
9 Magus arcana
10
11 Magus arcana
12
13 Magus arcana
14 Greater spell combat
15 Magus arcana
16 Counterstrike
17 Magus arcana
18 Weapon call
19 Magus arcana
20 True magus


I like it, since there’s room in the mid-levels to give the class some nice, flavorful class powers. I did move weapon call, but I thought it should have come earlier anyway.




In addition, these suggestions came up. They just didn’t affect the table, so I decided to put them below it.


More Touch Spells: It has been universally announced that more touch spells are coming. However, we’re missing some of the staples of this generation. Touch of Fatigue and Vampiric touch are conspicuously missing, and in general we need more to play with.


More Magus Arcana: In addition to it being every other level, I think we need a more versatile amount of powers to have fun with. Maybe one that grants 1d6 elemental damage per spell level sacrificed or something. In general, this aspect is just begging for more.




Hope this helps. And always remember to critique if you think something is wrong. That's what these playtests are for, isn't it?

 

[pawsplay]

I like the idea of an arcane pool, similar to a monk's ki pool. It could be used, perhaps, to power spell combat (instead of assessing such penalties), as well as to grant a bonus to hit (relieving problems from the medium BAB) or perhaps to recall a spell. Hmm.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

This is the entire point of the Magus and the reason it exists: players were asking Paizo for a Fighter/Wizard that didn't require them to multiclass Fighter/Wizard. If the Magus is comparable in power (even better if he's slightly more powerful than) a Fighter/Wizard of the same level, then they've mostly achieved their goal once they smooth out some of the rough spots and get the spell list updated with new goodies.

-Skeld

A multiclass fighter/wizard is a horrible combination. I'd rather play a commoner. Actually an adept is almost as good as a fighter/wizard with a better spell list. If your using a multiclass fighter/wizard as a benchmark, the magus will look like godmode.