Maintaining a fort - what is needed

[Derren]

Don't forget that all your craftsmen need raw materials to do anything.

So you either need to also produce the raw materials yourself (quarry stone, chop lumber, herd cattle for leather, not forgetting also the tanning process, mine ore, etc.

But it is unlikely that you would be self sufficient, so you need people to buy what they need in the nearest cities/towns/villages. Of course they need carts, oxen, some of the mercs for protection and, most importantly, funds on hand to buy all this stuff.

That stuff also includes food as hunting and foraging could sustain such a fort for a few months but not for a longer time. You also want some reserves in the case you are besiged. You do have a well or access to a river from inside the walls, do you?

And then there is of course politics. For the one who owns the land one band of bandits has just been replaced by another (the PCs). And when they start to reinforce the fort he might try to take steps to flush you out which includes other adventurers or a small army to deal with.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Honestly I'd put it higher...

Wow - I wish I could XP you again, but I already XP'd you for today.

SHS stands for what now? Sleeping ___ Space? Something else?

So, you say it's 75 SHS? Not clear on what you mean by sleeping 180? Is that total for soldiers & support? What about the the 900 soldiers? Was that just "if needed"?

Thanks for all that work!

 

[Loonook]

Don't forget that all your craftsmen need raw materials to do anything.

Agreed on pretty much everything here. There are pricings for being near settlements (if you are near a metropolis for example you can save quite a bit.. But you also benefit from recovering a formerly 'lawless' area. That same keep would cost 10% less, as would multiple other factors such as hillocks, mountain terrain, etc.

I'd spot the overall cost of the building to appraise a little upwards of 110000 GP. 10% off the top makes it 99,000... I'd put the palisade raw materials as being 'found' by the party or their mercenaries with plans (4500 of the amount), and 5500GP in the coffers for further expansion. If you are in a hilly area drop it to 88,000, with an additional 11000 in useful stronghold commodities about (the stores of food for 200 individuals for a year would run around 7200, and fill up a storage space that was locked by the previous tenant). I'd put it as having seen better days, but still able to be purified by the Cleric in your party for use by the keep in a pinch (using Cantrips) but it will burn a solid hour of cantrip casting if you're using a level 1 cleric per storage unit.

In that storage unit you may find some useful tools or other items. Casting spells (Wall of Stone, move earth, fly, fabricate, telekinesis) will save your party a lot of the hassle when building. I don't know what level your casters are, but it can really help when you're of a high enough level to hire a Consultant from the local Guilds who may have available tools and magic to speed up the process... But it will cost you some scratch if you're not using your own spells .

Politically you need to oil the waters and make everyone happy. Bribery, coercion, explaining that controlled troops protecting the region vs. bandits who stole from them would benefit them greatly. If you happen to have royal support or a noble in your pocket? Even better.

The title doesn't belong to your party... So they're going to need some assistance.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[NewJeffCT]

Don't forget that all your craftsmen need raw materials to do anything.

So you either need to also produce the raw materials yourself (quarry stone, chop lumber, herd cattle for leather, not forgetting also the tanning process, mine ore, etc.

But it is unlikely that you would be self sufficient, so you need people to buy what they need in the nearest cities/towns/villages. Of course they need carts, oxen, some of the mercs for protection and, most importantly, funds on hand to buy all this stuff.

That stuff also includes food as hunting and foraging could sustain such a fort for a few months but not for a longer time. You also want some reserves in the case you are besiged. You do have a well or access to a river from inside the walls, do you?

And then there is of course politics. For the one who owns the land one band of bandits has just been replaced by another (the PCs). And when they start to reinforce the fort he might try to take steps to flush you out which includes other adventurers or a small army to deal with.

Thanks - good input. The fort is near a river and overlooks a large lake, so it does have 3 wells for water. The fort the PCs have is kind of in a no man's land between several kingdoms. It was left over from a long ago era when the bandit king took it over and built the wooden walls there. So, politics will be in the background for the near term.

 

[Derren]

Thanks - good input. The fort is near a river and overlooks a large lake, so it does have 3 wells for water. The fort the PCs have is kind of in a no man's land between several kingdoms. It was left over from a long ago era when the bandit king took it over and built the wooden walls there. So, politics will be in the background for the near term.

It might be in the background for now, but this situation is pretty dangerous.

First, it is unlikely that this really is no mans land. Someone will likely have the claim on this land through heredity laws. Though it is possible that all of them would be dead and so the title would have reverted back to the king. That would be good for the PCs if they can convince him to grant the claim to one of them.

If the claim on the land can't be tracked because of lost records the PCs will later likely have to deal with several pretenders. Likely they can't match the PCs power wise, but they can appeal to the neighboring kingdoms, and here the real danger lies. Such land, especially when it makes progress, is prime location and both kingdoms want that. So it is very likely that they might try to take the land for themselves, either by force (bad) or by making one of the PCs a vassall (good and more likely unless the PCs are unfit for nobility or are on bad terms with the king).
If the PCs rather stay independent it gets tricky. The best chance would be to convince the kingdoms that it would be in their best interest to have a neutral and fairly powerless micro kingdom between them as a buffer. Also convince them that keeping that land safe is very, very expensive and they should not bother with it.

Btw: A small hint to the players. They want to loose those mercenaries as fast as possible. Mercenary bands make very bad garrisons as they can turn on you any time. While the PCs are gone they could easily decide that they rule the keep. Also they are not the most social folk and can easily annoy the population with their behavior. Don't forget, those guys are used to pillage and plunder for their living. Those are not the most lawful types around.
One advantage of organized mercenaries is that they come with their own support staff like craftsmen etc.

Are there any towns or at least several villages in the area (and also considered no-mans land)? Or is this keep in the middle of nowhere?

 

[NewJeffCT]

My mistake - I just looked at the battlemat and the fort is actually 150x180, not 120x150, so 27,000 square feet vs 18,000.

Would that mean instead of 180 persons, it is now 270?

 

[NewJeffCT]

Are there any towns or at least several villages in the area (and also considered no-mans land)? Or is this keep in the middle of nowhere?

Actually, there are no villages or towns within a one week journey by foot. Major merchants traverse the area by river journeying between kingdoms, while smaller merchants go by wagon.

There are a few clusters of farms nearby, but that is the closest thing to civilization.

Think of the area the PCs are in as the middle of a square. To the East, West and South of the square are three kingdoms, while the north is barbarian territory. There are a few settlers throughout, but no true authority. However, merchants, trappers, etc do pass through the region bringing goods from one kingdom to another.

 

[Loonook]

Thanks - good input. The fort is near a river and overlooks a large lake, so it does have 3 wells for water. The fort the PCs have is kind of in a no man's land between several kingdoms. It was left over from a long ago era when the bandit king took it over and built the wooden walls there. So, politics will be in the background for the near term.

So it's a completely flat plain with a lake as one of its borders, and a river to the other side? What's the distance on that river?

Food concerns can be met through cultivation of rice (if the temperatures are right) and irrigation... But I find it difficult to believe (unless this thing was built with a LARGE amount of cash) that we're looking at a large distance between it and any other kingdom. The costs alone in stone without native quarries is going to push this thing into the stratosphere. It would be a white elephant castle.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

EDIT: Saw your posts above... Farms are going to equate to people being about, unless said farms grow durable goods crops for your neighboring locales. No actual produce such as vegetables are making it to market beyond subsistence, but you could have grains, tobacco, rice, dye plants like indigo (again, based on temperature), and other resources.

A merchant traveling through to an out-of-the-way castle is going to be someone hired in the city for the trek. This is bandit country, and you have no real impetus for merchants to be going within a day's ride of this place. Decent sized keelboats or large rafts could carry thousands of pounds worth of supplies but most merchants would want you to float the cost of the raft's creation as it will more than likely be a dicey proposition to get the thing back up river.

Figure the cost of transferring materials by raft at 1 sp/500 lbs/mile away from your current location (cost of hiring a couple of deckhands to maneuver the thing, plus danger of losing the whole cargo, plus coverage of any incidence) plus materials cost to create a raft that will float. For the castle to receive shipment from a farming community 1 week away by land (that is going to be 140 miles on a conservative estimate)... It will take much longer than that (probably about a month) to get a raft down-river, and its max payload (at half speed) of 1 ton, you're looking at 56 gp. The raft is useless for anything but scrap, while a well-built raft adds an additional 100 GP (but is usable if you can get it back upriver, and halves your overall costs).

Now a barge, which you may be able to dicker down substantially, will require teams of horses, 40 men to the oars to prevent becalming, unload the materials, and generally handle cargo, and a boatswain as a skilled laborer. The barge, if loaded full at 50 tons, will require 4 horses to pull the thing at 5 ft/round, or around 4 miles/day in a 0 mph river. If there's a current that's great, but you're also going to have to battle the upcurrent, and hope the thing is pliable. For a full load you will need a team of horses 5x larger than that, but they will be able to move your materials at a working speed of 20 miles/day back to your castle. A barge runs around 6000 GP, with an outlay of 4000 GP for your 5 teams of 4, and 800 for the chain, tackle, and saddle required to secure the team (just using simple block and tackle/saddles/chain costs here).

Now the delicious opportunities to pull 50 tons of materials is going to help out a lot, and that outlay can be somewhat offset by using your warhorses to pull the barge... But you're going to leave yourself short in the heavy horse department.

But, this doesn't take into account your PCs. Want to make some money? Have the PCs go along, trading, offering spellcasting assistance to local businesses and farmers, having the men doing odd jobs and Profession/Perform checks while on the boat. This wasn't uncommon (without the spellcasting of course ) into the 20th century, and may provide for some little adventure opportunities along the way.

Once trade has been established by your travels up and down the rivers looking for materials you could hire out boatmen to maintain the more skilled travel, and begin to purchase horses to pull your barge. Perhaps you can send smaller keelboats (20 Ton capacity but under oar and sail) in lieu of the barge to begin, with the PCs being the main individuals on the ship and working towards a barge. The Keelboat runs around 3000 GP, and could easily be dry-docked in some hidden locale or on the inevitable dock that is going to be located here near your lake. Commandeering any boats on that lake and putting able-bodied semiskilled and unskilleds to the task will really help you, and the NPC groups can be randoml determined to succeed or fail as they sail.

Slainte,

-Loonook.

 

[Derren]

Actually, there are no villages or towns within a one week journey by foot. Major merchants traverse the area by river journeying between kingdoms, while smaller merchants go by wagon.

There are a few clusters of farms nearby, but that is the closest thing to civilization.

Think of the area the PCs are in as the middle of a square. To the East, West and South of the square are three kingdoms, while the north is barbarian territory. There are a few settlers throughout, but no true authority. However, merchants, trappers, etc do pass through the region bringing goods from one kingdom to another.

The good thing is that they do not need to convince any town rulers to acknowledge them as rulers. The bad thing is that keeping this fort supplied will be very hard. For now, better stick with wooden buildings.
A dock will be extremely important to bring in goods by boat. That also means that there isn't quite as much pressure to pacify the area as at first you don't need that safe roads.
Having a lot of boat traffic will also increase the demand for rope, tar and sailcloth (if the river is big enough for sailing).

The hard part will be to get the claim for this territory while keeping all kingdoms happy and peaceful. This location just screams trade hub, so the more the kingdoms trade with each other, the better for the PCs. But remember, if it would be so profitable to have a town there it would already exist. So even with this favorable location it will be no easy ride, but considering that this is still D&D the problems should more be monster related (or otherwise dangerous territory) or political if thats where your campaign is headed.
They need to find a way to get the merchants to spend money. Not with taxes at first (until they get a official claim for that area) but with services, be it supplies, repairs, protection or entertainment.
Now, if the kingdoms go to war, that will be bad. Because not only goods can be transported by river, but also troops. The fort could find itself occupied rather quickly to serve at a staging area.

By the way, about what type of river are we talking? River can mean a lot from a small waterway people nearly can jump over to the Yangtze.

 

[NewJeffCT]

1) The fort is on a hilltop, which I stated in the original post.
2) The underground level and the buildings were what was left of a long-abandoned & remote monastery. The bandit king constructed the wooden wall around the buildings to make it into a fort.
3) The bandit king had put a considerable dent in trade between the 3 kingdoms I had mentioned in another post above, and part of the reason the PCs were in the area was to gain a reward from one of the 3 kingdoms for curbing the bandit activity. All 3 kingdoms have other large issues (wars, or threats of war) that have prevented them from dealing fully with the bandit problem in a timely fashion. Plus, it was also outside of their actual kingdoms, so if one kingdom moved an army into fight the bandit king, the other 2 kingdoms might see it as a threatening move or a land grab.
4) Food was sometimes an issue for the bandits, but they had cowed enough local farmers into giving them food/goods that they managed to get by. They also had bands of bandits out and were expanding their turf beyond the immediate area of the fort in an attempt to get more resources. The 100+ square mile lake also provided ample fishing for the bandits and they did do some of that.