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Make a Better Living Campaign

Jack7

First Post
This thread by Havard: Living Campaigns

got me to thinking.


How would you improve the idea of Living Campaigns to make them better? What things would you do, or suggest, to make a better Living Campaign?

I'm not talking about improving specific Living Campaigns (though you can talk about that if you wish in context of the thread), but I mean how would you improve the very idea of Living Campaigns and how they function?
 

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Great thread idea!

I was always fascinated with the old TORG Infiniverse concept where gaming groups would report the results of their adventures to WEG and the campaign setting would change according to the results from these reports. This should be much easier in the age of the Internet. Back then it was done by snail mail (!). Could this concept be integrated more heavily into a Living Campaign?

-Havard
 

The first "problem" with the concept of "Living" campaigns is that they are NOT living in any sense -- players all over the world play the same adventures, with no impact on the setting or each other in any meaningful way whatsoever. Adventures continue to linger around for years without any changes made to them. It is as static a setting as any published setting would be. The major "living" campaigns we have seen from WotC and others have hardly been "living" in any sense.

The concept may be something that is too difficult to even tackle. I believe that's why the nomenclature has gone away from using the word "living" in some of the newer campaigns (Ashes of Athas, for example). To my knowledge, the stuff I discussed in the prior paragraph is not something anyone has attempted to tackle. Updating prior (or future) adventures based on the actions of players is a monumental, possibly Herculean task. One way to accomplish this would involve tabulating surveys (or something to that effect) from the end of each adventure played and somehow work the results into some sort of update on a monthly or annual basis to change the setting and past/future adventures to reflect what has been done in the "living" part of the campaign.

Has this been accomplished on ANY level in a major "living" campaign? I'd be curious to see how it worked and how successful it was.
 

It has been attempted, but surprisingly not since communication tools have been at a place where it MIGHT be practical. As havard pointed out, WEG tried it as did several others in the late 80s/early 90s. I have issues of Dragon advertising some of them. The problem was that communication was done via automated telephone system or via postal mail. Which meant that feedback was tedious to provide and slow to arrive.

It wouldn't be difficult today. Divide the players up into zones they can choose. Publish you materials in two formats: a digital, enhanced format, and a traditional PDF. GMs running the PDF have a set time to play the game and log into the website fill out a form of their resolution. Mostly radio buttons and check marks, but an open text box for off-the wall stuff. A script could be created to flag entries with interesting words and email them to staff. The enhanced program could be made to automatically upload results within the specified time frame. At the end of the time frame, a summary is sent out to all members describing the official outcome, and you prepare the next adventure in the path based on that outcome.

And, "It's ALIVE!"
 

Some good observations. About communications and setting/campaign change.

Some things I thought of:

Have a person or group of people responsible for throwing in Living Events every now and then. A Plaque outbreak, war or border skirmishes, a volcanic eruption, earthquake, tidal wave, forest fire, or other natural disaster.

Have events like this occur occasionally during campaigns (or between adventures) and word of them spread to others not playing in the area of effect, but others would get word of them by refugees fleeing, ships spreading the word, areas being over-run, etc.
There could be monster outbreaks.

There could be areas along the frontiers of a setting that have never been explored or mapped or accounted for and as new adventurers go in, and assuming they survive these frontier experiences, they would return with their own personal accounts of what these areas contained (which may or may not be accurate).

Another thing that occurred to me is the possibility that a natural, miraculous/supernatural, magical, or even natural event (huge earthquake) might uncover long buried ruins, or lead to the resurrection of a long forgotten race or bizarre/weird discovery. On the other hand, entirely new Races might be discovered. Or new species of animals or creatures found.

There would be occasional Civil Wars. Cities sacked and plundered. Libraries burnt. Major building and construction projects undertaken. Forced or natural immigration problems. Famines and food shortages. Sea levels rising or falling. Major fires in cities, or wildfires in the outlands. Rivers might change course, naturally or unnaturally, or inland seas start to dry up.
And of course civilized areas could occasionally be over-run by barbarians, perhaps of a type previously unknown coming in from Frontier Lands.

You could do all kinds of things in a Living Campaign that would make it seem like a real world, like things that happen or have happened to our own world.

As I said I'd call these Living Events and they would occur periodically, but unexpectedly, and would alter the setting dramatically.

Most of these Living Events would be different from Living Actions which are actions brought on by human or other intelligent agents, though there would be some overlap.
 
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Great thread. Thanks for starting it.

I have a bit of experience with several different "Living" campaigns, and "improve" is a tough concept, because one person's improvement is another's rant-inducing, flame-provoking cry of "you killed my campaign." I would say that rather than thinking of improving, a discussion of the different poles of organization and design would be beneficial.

To start, I think it is best of remember that "Living" first meant something different than it does today. When you went to conventions to play sanctioned tournaments back in the day, you were given a pre-generated character, and when the tournament (whether one round or several) ended, that was the end. Living City was created as an alternative to that, where you could bring your own character, gain treasure and experience, and continue playing that character at subsequent events. Also, you could have those characters interact with other characters in different ways: trading or selling goods, for example. Certainly the whole "characters affect their environment through game play" was part of the selling point, but it wasn't the only aspect, and probably wasn't even the major selling point. We've come so far with these types of campaigns that it is easy to forgot just how revolutionary the idea of bringing your own character to a tournament and advancing that character actually was.

Now in terms of if and how a Living Campaign allows character actions to affect the ongoing story, in the campaigns I was involved in, it happened many times and in diverse ways. Sometimes it was done through tabulating results provided online (like we did when people reported their results in WotC's Eberron-based Xendrik Expeditions campaign. In the faction of that campaign I oversaw, a potentially major NPC was not rescued in one adventure by a majority of the tables, so he did not appear in later adventures, and the plot I had planned changed because of it.

In Living Greyhawk, many changes were made in the overall plot of different regions based on events that were either tabulated through reporting, or were based on the results of what became known as "interactives." These were large events that saw many tables of players going through the same adventure (or linked adventures) at the same time. Not only did the outcomes of these events change the course of plots and settings, but often the various players got to interact with each other. Think of the defense of a city where each table of players was in charge of defending a different section. Groups could assist each other, send each other information, etc.

The main factor that determines how much player-driven results can change the plot and setting of the campaign is the size and scope of the campaign setting. Trying to change the Forgotten Realms is a bit tricky, since there are currently probably 30 different RPG, novel, board game, computer game, and lunch box design or development projects taking place there. The Living campaign staff isn't going to just shoot an email to someone at WotC and say, "Oh, by the way, Szass Tam is dead now. Tell all those novelists and game designers that his cousin Bernie is now ruler of Thay."

Organizations with more granular control over their settings, or who make their "Living" campaign a larger focus of the setting, can go much further in giving the individual players a chance to impact the world through play. But even then, all of the issues of timing, adventure availability, production lead times, and other fidgety details rear their ugly heads.

I am not as familiar with Living-style campaigns for non-D&D campaigns, so I would love to hear other examples about how some of those other campaigns may have been different from my experiences.
 
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I have a bit of experience with several different "Living" campaigns, and "improve" is a tough concept, because one person's improvement is another's rant-inducing, flame-provoking cry of "you killed my campaign." I would say that rather than thinking of improving, a discussion of the different poles of organization and design would be beneficial.

I'm easy in this regard. People can modify, improve, alter, redesign things as works best for them. I've never understood the tendency I've observed among so many modern Geeks (I'm not using the term disparagingly, just descriptively) to assume because someone else suggests something different or experimental to assume this mean the other person is insisting on dictatorial obedience rather than just say, "well, that's an interesting approach, I'll try that and see if it works or not."

I'm not a Geek and so I don't understand this, and don't look at experimentation in this way.

My opinion is let people experiment, take suggestions, test them, and then improve things as works for them. If something doesn't work then my opinion is ignore it or discard it. Either way is perfectly fine by me.

But people can address the problem as they see fit and use the terminology they like. I hope nobody here is spoiling for a fight over these issues (it's just a game after all), however I do hope that folks will offer up some interesting ideas and opinions. So far it seems like they have.
 

I hear what you are saying. I didn't mean to sound overly sensitive, but I probably am. Having been on the business end of some hostility (including honest-to-goodness threats of physical violence) from people when changes were made to their favorite campaigns, I might be hyper-aware of these semantic distinctions. :-D
 

I hear what you are saying. I didn't mean to sound overly sensitive, but I probably am. Having been on the business end of some hostility (including honest-to-goodness threats of physical violence) from people when changes were made to their favorite campaigns, I might be hyper-aware of these semantic distinctions. :-D

I didn't take it that way at all. Just making an observation. I have seen some things on here, and elsewhere on the internet, and thought to myself, "of all things this is something to fight about?"

A good debate, now I like that. But no, I didn't take it as being overly sensitive. I'm pretty easygoing on most things.

I'm just saying "everybody play it as you will."

I got no particular dog in this hunt, not a prize dog anyhow, but I do like a good dog-hunt.

So, happy hunting guys. And gals.
 

I think that the way that TORG did things with their Infiniverse newsletters could definitely work for living campaigns with the current use of technology.

In addition to reporting on what the PCs did in regards to certain key metacampaign points (majority of PCs did or didn't eliminate the undead problem in the Free City, did or didn't kill the fell necromancer controlling them, etc.) that can affect later adventures, I'd also add the ability to report other things (one set of PCs discovered that the fell necromancer was recruiting minions from a local tribe of Derro; another set of PCs took a wrong turn in their investigation and discovered a plot to murder the head of the local chandlers' guild, etc.)

As the various different plot hooks roll in from DMs reporting, the controllers of the living campaign can cull them for the most promising to be turned into additional "non-core" adventures.

And I almost forgot - strict enforcement of what sources are authorized should be a bit more practical. If there is the possibility of gaining a particular prestige class, feat, or special something, then it ought to be allowed. If there isn't, then don't. An example of this is the old Sword and Fist supplement - the Warmaster is described as Furyondian. Your PC is from Lendore and you want that PrC? Too bad, so sad.
 
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