Make Whole + Raise Dead

[Mouseferatu]

Okay, let's completely leave aside the question of whether it's appropriate in terms of flavor or intent. Right now, I just want a strict RAW interpretation.

Assuming that one has a partial body, but one insufficient for raise dead, is there any reason by the RAW that one could not simply cast make whole on it, and then cast raise dead? After all, by the RAW, a dead body is an object, not a creature.

Thoughts?

 

[Ranes]

The target of Raise Dead is listed as 'one dead creature'. Make Whole says it doesn't work on creatures (it doesn't specify that they must be living). I can't find a reference to dead creatures being considered objects. If you could point to one, I'd be obliged.

 

[3d6]

I'm not sure that dead creatures are objects. Per the condition summary, being dead has the following effects:

The character’s hit points are reduced to -10, his Constitution drops to 0, or he is killed outright by a spell or effect. The character’s soul leaves his body. Dead characters cannot benefit from normal or magical healing, but they can be restored to life via magic. A dead body decays normally unless magically preserved, but magic that restores a dead character to life also restores the body either to full health or to its condition at the time of death (depending on the spell or device). Either way, resurrected characters need not worry about rigor mortis, decomposition, and other conditions that affect dead bodies.

On the other hand, the definition of "creature" is:

A living or otherwise active being, not an object. The terms "creature" and "character" are sometimes used interchangeably.

Actually, that definition makes "dead creature" an oxymoron, as creatures are living by definition. Hmm. I guess raise dead doesn't work on anybody.

 

[hong]

Li Shenron, what have you wrought? WHAT HAVE YOU WROUGHT??//?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Actually, that definition makes "dead creature" an oxymoron, as creatures are living by definition.

Not necessarily. Just as a [natural armor bonus] is not an [armor bonus], and an [incorporeal touch attack] isn't really a [touch attack], perhaps a [dead creature] is not a [creature] at all.

Regarding Make Whole - can it actually replace missing material, or only rejoin separated material?

If I cut a gold coin in half, and cast Make Whole on one half, does it regenerate the missing half from nothing? Does it transport the missing half from wherever it may be? Or am I required to supply both halves, and the spell will merely fuse them back together?

My impression is that it's the third... so if you have a body with a severed head, Make Whole will work, but if you have a body missing a severed head, you're out of luck.

-Hyp.

 

[starwed]

If I cut a gold coin in half, and cast Make Whole on one half, does it regenerate the missing half from nothing? Does it transport the missing half from wherever it may be? Or am I required to supply both halves, and the spell will merely fuse them back together?

Well, there's something slightly odd about both mending and make whole, which is that both target one object.

(Regeneration is right out, though, since the language of the spell makes it clear that pieces are rejoined or welded back together.)

 

[Hussar]

Ceramic or wooden objects with multiple breaks can be invisibly rejoined to be as strong as new. A hole in a leather sack or a wineskin is completely healed over by mending. (from Mending)

Note that Make Whole works on any substance of course.

The big thing here is that it repairs objects, but the implication here is that you need all of the object in order to repair. While a hole in the bag is sealed, you don't actually gain (much) more material. You just close the hole. If pieces are missing, I would say that Make Whole doesn't work.

Makes sense when you think that Make Whole also doesn't work if the object has been "warped, burned, disintegrated, ground to powder, melted, or vaporized". What is the difference between vaporized and eaten and digested?

While it's not exactly spelled out in the rules, Make Whole doesn't actually recreate any material, just fixes what's already there. Thus, it couldn't remake a partial body. If you had lots of pieces of the whole body, then Make Whole could be cast before Raise Dead instead of needing Resurrection.

 

[Cheiromancer]

I thought that if you had all the parts, raise dead would also work. You stick 'em together and the spell heals the wounds (i.e. the cuts that separated them).

 

[starwed]

From the spell description of raise dead:

While the spell closes mortal wounds and repairs lethal damage of most kinds, the body of the creature to be raised must be whole. Otherwise, missing parts are still missing when the creature is brought back to life.

Obviously if this can be a problem if the body is decapitated, cut in half, or other such conditions.

 

[The_Warlock]

I think the issue comes from 3.0, where make whole was NOT spelled out as "not affecting creatures". That bit was added in 3.5. Furthermore, the adventure in Dungeon magazine which includes a priest of Loviatar having infiltrated a temple of Ilmater in a small town and put her childhood rival (now a paladin) into a devourer (I can't remember the issue or adventure name, not being at home) specifically uses make whole to reconstruct a child's body after it is torn and bludgeoned to death by zombies so that it can be "found" whole and without any evidence of cause of death.

Furthermore, I recall allusions in 3.0 that a body could be considered merely for it's weight, and not a creature, for teleportation magics that had creature limits (a la plane shift), though i don't recall any actual specifics in the rules.