Make Your Case: Monk & Bard

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[MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION]

What a class is depends of the setting and type of fantasy you are creating, like [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] said.

In my Iroonwood homemade rpg, there are 3 types of beings that might be seen as bard.

1) Official members of one of the performance guilds who run the major travelling troupes, bands, plays, and circus. They are more skill based rogues with performance based minor magic.

2) Sages of each noble house and government who hold lore and information in magical songs. Think SoIaF maesters with actual magic. Cloth wearing spell clerics.

3) Unassorted travellers who go from town to town picking up skills and spells from local people of importance and paying for it with songs, dance, and questing. They are more fighter/rogue/wizard things.

So it depends on what you seen them as.

 

[steeldragons]

@steeldragons

What a class is depends of the setting and type of fantasy you are creating, like @Celebrim said.

In my Iroonwood homemade rpg, there are 3 types of beings that might be seen as bard.

-snip cool stuff-

So it depends on what you seen them as.

Well, I get what both of you are saying. But I don't necessarily agree. I can list those kinds of "different places and types of bards that might be found wandering around Orea" too...

But when you open up the Ironwood Player's Handbook...it's not about how you see/play them...Where is the class info for a PC Bard listed? What does it include to be a Bard class in Ironwood?

In Orea, it doesn't matter if you are a wandering respected and honored entertainer and living historical record in the kingdom of Mostrial or a rakish cad shtupping the noblewomen at the high class parties in the courts of the magelords of R'Hath ["foolish" doesn't even begin...] or picking pockets and swapping secrets in the back allies of Andril in between underpaid music sets at some dive port-side tavern. You go to the PHB to make a bard PC, and this [xyz] is what you get that makes you a Bard....xyz is what, overall, in the grand broad scheme, Bard is. How you then color and lean your particular PC is not really class-defining to me.

So, in the setting, you [the player] can have a "priestly" Bard, if that's what you want, or a "roguey" Bard if that's what you want...or a illusiony trickster or a swordmagey guy or a Bard that focuses their magic in nature/druidic ways and acts as an agent for the Ancient Order of Mistwood [druids]...so, "what it is in the setting" really isn't the definition of the class...at least not when it comes to Bard.

Things like Druid and Paladin...and Barbarian, yes they are all a bit more setting-specific/narrow to interpretation. Bard simply isn't one of those classes. It possesses elements of all four "base" groups: priest, warrior, wizard and rogue and can easily [be played to] lean in any one of those directions.

Monk...probably is more the formers than the latter...but they too can be played/lean toward warrior, priest or rogue...regardless of what various types and spaces I make or them in the setting. Do they xyz? Then they're a Monk...whether its the elf-ninja Runners of Seven Clouds or the mystic Scribe-Monks of Sorilorr (god of knowledge and inspiration) recording all that happens in the world in their sacred scrolls....or the breaking stone with their fists Disciples of the Dragon [style] training in the hidden temple-city of Esherrakerrek...they are all [or would/will all be, if they go in] Monks in the Orea PHB.

 

[MJS]

Medieval monks are not adventurers, so I agree with Gary Gygax that the kung fu monk is the archetype, belonging mostly in eastern settings.

the Bards, I too lean towards the Celtic tones. Have you considered making it more of an extra-class association, in other words, available to any class? In this way, it is more of a roleplaying direction.

 

[steeldragons]

the Bards, I too lean towards the Celtic tones. Have you considered making it more of an extra-class association, in other words, available to any class? In this way, it is more of a roleplaying direction.

Ya know, I actually have...initial thought was to harken back to 1e and say (in the second/Expert-equivalent set or "Advanced" Orea PHB) any Druid or Fighter or Thief of level X could decide to become a Bard/take on Bardic training...and then upon reflection of the world and the other classes opened that thinking up to Rangers and Barbarians also...which is pretty much everybody except Mages or Psychics...so why not throw them in, right? Paladins and Clerics just wouldn't cuz...well, they're already devoted (though an exception for clerics of the god of minstrels/luck/autumn, perhaps).

Maybe that needs a revisit more than a slapdash [though admittedly popular] "Bard = a Rogue with music magic."

Maybe this whole thread is a waste...well, not a waste, so much as a valuable sounding board...just seems to bring me back around to "Monk and Bard don't need to go in"...not this first PH/set anyway.

 

[MJS]

Ya know, I actually have...initial thought was to harken back to 1e and say (in the second/Expert-equivalent set or "Advanced" Orea PHB) any Druid or Fighter or Thief of level X could decide to become a Bard/take on Bardic training...and then upon reflection of the world and the other classes opened that thinking up to Rangers and Barbarians also...which is pretty much everybody except Mages or Psychics...so why not throw them in, right? Paladins and Clerics just wouldn't cuz...well, they're already devoted (though an exception for clerics of the god of minstrels/luck/autumn, perhaps). Maybe that needs a revisit more than a slapdash [though admittedly popular] "Bard = a Rogue with music magic."Maybe this whole thread is a waste...well, not a waste, so much as a valuable sounding board...just seems to bring me back around to "Monk and Bard don't need to go in"...not this first PH/set anyway.

I see the Monk as similar. A lot of Clerics would have been Monks before adventuring. A Cleric or Paladin that tells stories by the fire, and carries a horn they blast going into battle, has Bardic potential. I disagree with, say, 5 levels fighter, 5 thief, 1 druid and presto! You're a Bard! Both the Bardic talents, and the Monk devotion, are perhaps better served as roleplay elements, perhaps expressed in skills if you're using them. Certainly, a Paladin could be thought of as a monk first and foremost.

 

[Minigiant]

[MENTION=92511]steeldragons[/MENTION]

In the Ironwood rpg, there is no one "bard" class. There are two, the performer or the sage. The performer can train in tumbling, song, dance, or speech. The sage is just the jack of 3+ trades of your choice and comes off as priestly as most choose healing or lore as trades.

Whereas the monk is just a "spirit user". Though they are easiest played as warriors, they can work as roguish or priestly.

But for your purposes, I think you are best suited with roguish bards and priest monks.

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

The wandering minstrel is a classic fantasy trope (along with variations, like the Viking Skald) -- it should definitely go in.

I think of bards as rogues, generally, with the D&D bard generally being a mage/rogue hybrid (or a fighter/thief/druid if you really want to replicate the original).

Monks have no place in D&D as the ki-wielding psychic monks, in my personal opinion. Monks as Name Of the Rose studious clerics, perhaps ... but then why would they adventure?

 

[Gadget]

While the 1e monk had the flavor of kung-fu psychic, it really slotted into the thief role much better than other roles. I can see an argument for both rogue and priest. The key is to look at the role of the class separate from the flavor of it for a moment. While I do not see monks as happy-go-lucky or roguish ne'er-do-wells, they seem to slot into that mechanical role much better than the buffer, healer, undead smasher priestly role, even if by the flavor text they are more closely aligned with that outlook.

Bards seem to be difficult as well. I'm fond of the 1e implementation and so would lean toward the divine role there to give the class a little gravitas and dignity. Not to mention their abilities can be made to fill this role on a mechanical level as well. I could be prejudiced though, as I am not fond of the foppish, singing troubadour of recent years.