Making a New PC Race - Assigning the LA

I say mental stat hits other than wisdom are unneeded on a LA race.

a Int hit matters little because the LA has already crippled chances of wizard advancement. Sure you can one-dip for a few spell combos, bur a -2 Int won't stop that. All -2 int does is cripple skill points.

A wisdom hit can matter since Clerics and Druids {PHB2 varient] can afford a level for more beat down potential.

a Cha hit matters little because the LA has already crippled chances of Sorcerer advancement {some think sorcerer advancement is crippled to start with]. Sure you can one-dip for a few spell combos, bur a -2 cha won't stop that. What it does do is ensure the LA'ed -2 Charisma race makes pathetic paladins. A Charisma hit also results in either the player's character being treated worse by NPCs or less in-game plausibility when they are not treated like the low charisma pariahs they are.
 

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frankthedm said:
I say mental stat hits other than wisdom are unneeded on a LA race.

a Int hit matters little because the LA has already crippled chances of wizard advancement. Sure you can one-dip for a few spell combos, bur a -2 Int won't stop that. All -2 int does is cripple skill points.

A wisdom hit can matter since Clerics and Druids {PHB2 varient] can afford a level for more beat down potential.

a Cha hit matters little because the LA has already crippled chances of Sorcerer advancement {some think sorcerer advancement is crippled to start with]. Sure you can one-dip for a few spell combos, bur a -2 cha won't stop that. What it does do is ensure the LA'ed -2 Charisma race makes pathetic paladins. A Charisma hit also results in either the player's character being treated worse by NPCs or less in-game plausibility when they are not treated like the low charisma pariahs they are.


Indeed negative modifiers to mental stats only reduce the options for class choices even further. -2 to int on top of +1/+2 LA makes the race a crappy choice for rogues and rangers. -2 to wisdom makes spot and listen that much more challenging and considering the PC will likely have a poor will save progression makes it a challenge for mid level play. -2 to charisma ruins makes for a sucky paladin or bard obviously.
 

Vuron said:
Indeed negative modifiers to mental stats only reduce the options for class choices even further. -2 to int on top of +1/+2 LA makes the race a crappy choice for rogues and rangers. -2 to wisdom makes spot and listen that much more challenging and considering the PC will likely have a poor will save progression makes it a challenge for mid level play. -2 to charisma ruins makes for a sucky paladin or bard obviously.
As i said, Int and Charima negatives really are not signifigant penalties for LA with str bonuses and hit dice since those tend to be Barbarian bait.

Also a wisdom hit hurts a lot less if the race does not have the humaniod type. A good amount of will save spells only hit humaniods.
 

Abisashi said:
It's been a while since I read the books, and I haven't read Bonehunters yet, so sorry if I am remembering incorrectly. I don' have the books with me right now, either, so my sources are copied from https://starvalddemelain.pbwiki.com/.

For the dex penalty, Karsa Orlong is described as 'Impossibly lithe for one of such bulk...' (DG, UK MMPB, p.205). He's obviously above average, so it's hard to say, but it seems like there should be no dex penalty.


I think I'd make them LA +2:
- remove the dex penalty
- remove the int penalty
- remove the wis penalty
- add a -2 cha penalty


So:
Str +4, Con +4, Cha -2
Speed 40
Powerful Build
Fast Healer (regain HP and lost ability points at twice the normal rate)
+2 on saves vs. poison, and immunity to non-magical disease.
Favored Class: Barbarian

Edit: Isn't Karsa actually Thelomen Toblakai? Leoman tells him he is (HoC, UK MMPB, p.262-3), and I seem to remember that. But if that is so, do we meet any normal Teblor?

I need to re-read tMBotF, I think I'll do that over break.

"Teblor" is just what the primitive tribes of Thelomen Toblakai that Karsa and his people belong to call themselves - IIRC someone (forget who it is, but I think one of the Elder races, or an Ascendant - someone in the know, anyway) even comments on how pitiful they are for not even knowing their own real name.

As far as Karsa is concerned - I intentionally didn't model things on him, but tried to go for a more "average" Teblor/Toblakai. Remember that he slaughters other Teblor nearly as easily as he does humans - he's highly exceptional, and chosen (or cursed, depending on how you look at it) by the Crippled God. Also, it's not clear whether some of his abilities - like magic resistance, for example - are due to the blood oil (which seems to be made from otataral ore), the touch of the gods, or some kind of innate racial ability, so I ended up leaving that out. (that, and I also didn't want to add even more abilities to an already loaded list)

The more typical Teblor are still scary as hell, but considering their primitive culture, a long history of problems caused by inbreeding, and what appears like a huge rate of infant mortality, I felt pretty comfortable with penalizing their mental stats.
 

mmu1 said:
"Teblor" is just what the primitive tribes of Thelomen Toblakai that Karsa and his people belong to call themselves - IIRC someone (forget who it is, but I think one of the Elder races, or an Ascendant - someone in the know, anyway) even comments on how pitiful they are for not even knowing their own real name.

As far as Karsa is concerned - I intentionally didn't model things on him, but tried to go for a more "average" Teblor/Toblakai. Remember that he slaughters other Teblor nearly as easily as he does humans - he's highly exceptional, and chosen (or cursed, depending on how you look at it) by the Crippled God. Also, it's not clear whether some of his abilities - like magic resistance, for example - are due to the blood oil (which seems to be made from otataral ore), the touch of the gods, or some kind of innate racial ability, so I ended up leaving that out. (that, and I also didn't want to add even more abilities to an already loaded list.

You know, the closest D&D match for the Teblor is likely a Giant of some sort. I mean, I wouldn't have any trouble at all considering them size Large.

D&D Giants are a little overloaded with racial hitdice, but I'd give them something like:

6d8 racial giant hitdice.

+10 Strength (your average Teblor is stronger than the strongest human), -2 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

base speed 40 ft.

+4 natural armor

Spell Resistance = HD + 5 (Due to their racial habitual use of blood oil.)

Level adjustment +4
 

Wolfwood2 said:
You know, the closest D&D match for the Teblor is likely a Giant of some sort. I mean, I wouldn't have any trouble at all considering them size Large.

D&D Giants are a little overloaded with racial hitdice, but I'd give them something like:

6d8 racial giant hitdice.

+10 Strength (your average Teblor is stronger than the strongest human), -2 Dexterity, +8 Constitution, -2 Intelligence, -2 Charisma.

base speed 40 ft.

+4 natural armor

Spell Resistance = HD + 5 (Due to their racial habitual use of blood oil.)

Level adjustment +4

So you are thinking along the lines of a halfway point between Ogre and Hill Giant?

In general I'd say that's pretty fair but I might decrease the bonus to con to +6(ogres get +4, Hill Giants +8) in an attempt to reduce LA to +3.
 

I don't think they are big enough to be giants; their stature is very similar to Golaiths (Karsa is over 7 feet tall, and I don't recall him being especially above or below average), so I think mmu1 is on the right track.


mmu1 said:
As far as Karsa is concerned - I intentionally didn't model things on him, but tried to go for a more "average" Teblor/Toblakai.

I agree, I just was having trouble finding descriptions of non-Karsa Toblakai without the books handy. In fact, this made me decide that the cha penaly I suggested might be inapropriate as the other Toblakai aren't as taciturn as Karsa. Of coures, this is all as I recall, I could be totally off.

If you put back in the mental stat penalties, I might give them endurance to balance it out.
 
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mmu1 said:
Ok, so let's say you have a race with the following abilities:

Str +4, Dex -2, Int -2, Wis -2, Speed 40, Powerful Build, Fast Healer (regain HP and lost ability points at twice the normal rate), +2 on saves vs. poison, and immunity to non-magical disease.

Trying to peg them off of Goliaths (and assuming that Goliaths are correctly statted for their LA) I'd be inclined to say LA+1. Thoughts?
LA+2.

Drop the Int and wisdom hit and it will still be +2.

+4 to STR or powerful build; Dex -2, Con +4, Fast Healer (regain HP and lost ability points at twice the normal rate), +2 on saves vs. poison and disease Might be a LA+1 IMHO.
 

Fast Healer is a hard one to place and I personaly feel disease immunity is a fantastic ability. The speed boost is a real biggie since speed kills pretty well in the combat system and racial boosts stack with everything. A damage output boost is always good, though 4 to STR and powerful build and +4 Con feel too far past LA+1. That Con bonus will make the LA missing hit die vanish very fast. Plus Powerul build IMHO gives a little too much. Perhaps +4 STR and Monkey Grip as a Bonus feat and a handful of modest bonuses to round out the LA rather than to focus the LA at combat. On that note...

>>>Hijack<<<

I've been trying to build a LA+1 Half ogre less bestial than the Wotc version [Races of destiny half ogre is a LA+2]. I've tried to make it versatile, strong enough for a front liner, but not pidgeon holed into barbarian any more than the system makes Level adjusted races. Once a LA is applied to a race, mental stat hits don't really balance much out IMHO.

Any input? Playable? Too breakable?

[sblock=Half-ogre, human favoring]
While not as fecund as orcs, the blood of ogres can mix with humans. Some of those progeny favor their larger parent, while others favor their human side. These human favoring ones, while far stronger and hardier than their smaller parent, have psychological closeness to humans to make them well suited to being player characters. There are some that would even argue the half ogre has a more ‘human’ outlook than most other demi-human races. Their appearance certainly is, other than their height and mass, many could pass for a human. The Heresy miniature’s Big Boris is a good depiction of one of these human favoring half ogres. http://www.heresyminiatures.com/heroes.htm

Their relations with other races are about the same as human, though dwarves treat them slightly better than half orcs often citing their human heritage being the larger problem..

+4 Strength, -2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution. Half-ogres are tough and strong, but heavy muscles and thick skin limit their movement.

Type: Humaniod [human] [Giant Blooded] Half-ogres are human enough to be treated as a humaniod for spells and effects though enough giant blood flows through their veins to be affected by special effects that affect giants. This also allows them to use magical items that are only usable by giants. Dwarves may claim ½ of their normal dodge bonus against giants when fighting half ogres. A human bane and / or Giant bane weapon's bonuses would apply against them, though only one effect at one time would apply.

Medium size
: See also Big ‘un!

Half-ogre base land speed is 30 feet.

Darkvision 60’: Half ogres inherit their ogre parent’s darkvision.

Low-Light Vision: The human blood cleanses the ogre’s physical make up slightly, allowing them to make use of this trait of their giant ancestors.

Natural armor: +2. The half ogre also qualifies for the improved natural armor feat.

Proficient in greatclub.

+2 to saves vs ingested poison and food born illnesses

Automatic Language: Common. Bonus Languages: Saurian, Giant, Gnoll, dwarf; orc.

Favored Class: Any. Half ogres, while often viewed as brutes, are as blessed with versatility from their human ancestors as they are blessed with strength from their giant ancestors. They may not be destined to take scholarly paths, but the choice is theirs to make

Level Adjustment: +1.

Big ‘un!: The half ogre is about as large as a medium critter can get

They get a +2 bonus on checks where larger size helps and a -2 on checks where larger size hurts.

+50% carrying capacity

+100% recommended daily intake of food and drink.

Monkey grip as a bonus feat

Can wield a Large bastard sword, large dwarven war axe and large “Wotc Maul” as martial weapons when wielded with both hands [no wrong size penalty].

Can treat certain exotic weapons, typically ones that are exotic due to mass, as if martial weapons. Bastard sword, War Axe, Wotc Maul [hammer version of the war axe], Heavy halberd (2d6 x3 crit), heavy glaive [poleaxe](2d6 x3 crit), Daikyu [greatbow] (1d10 x3 crit) and similar weapons.


[/sblock]
 
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frankthedm said:
I say mental stat hits other than wisdom are unneeded on a LA race.

a Int hit matters little because the LA has already crippled chances of wizard advancement. Sure you can one-dip for a few spell combos, bur a -2 Int won't stop that. All -2 int does is cripple skill points.
Not true: some fighter feats (e.g. Combat Expertise) require Int 13


a Cha hit matters little because the LA has already crippled chances of Sorcerer advancement {some think sorcerer advancement is crippled to start with}
Sorcerors aren't the only spellcasters that use Cha as their spellcasting stat. It also affects Turn Undead.

Sure you can one-dip for a few spell combos, bur a -2 cha won't stop that. What it does do is ensure the LA'ed -2 Charisma race makes pathetic paladins. A Charisma hit also results in either the player's character being treated worse by NPCs or less in-game plausibility when they are not treated like the low charisma pariahs they are.
A Cha hit can matter a lot.
 

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