Making ability scores more about the character concept.

[Rya.Reisender]

I don't really like houseruling too much, so I handle it with the tools I have at hand. For example one of my players wants to play an intelligent fighter. Then he might not have the highest to-hit and damage in combat, but there are various benefits from being intelligent:

• Might be able to tell what type of creature an enemy is when encountering it, maybe even know of weaknesses and resistances; he can tell that the other PCs and this might actually give more of an advantage than higher hit and damage would be
• Might be able to succeed intelligence-based challenges without a roll required (especially when proficient - things like this actually are brought up in official adventure path that sometimes say e.g. "PCs proficient with arcana can immediately tell..."); since as DM I can decide when a roll is required or not, I might have the Wizard roll an Intelligence check but say that the PC that went out of his way to be good in something not usual for his class automatically succeeds at that

 

[BookBarbarian]

It occurs to me.

• Eliminate race from character creation.
• Level 1 allows choice of a feat.
• Some feats have flavor saying that the ability results from ‘Sun Elf heritage’, and so on.
• The feat might well have a minimum ability score prerequisite.

Under this system how would you answer the below question previously asked in the thread?

Would they be an elf or not?

 

[Yaarel]

Under this system how would you answer the below question previously asked in the thread?

I feel the player − as part of the character concept − needs to decide how much of a heritage the character expresses.

The default race (in most settings) is human. So a feat that attributes an ability to ‘elf heritage’, allows the player to choose whether the character is fully elf or partly elf, including the possibility of a full human raised among elves or an elf raised among humans, as well as the resulting appearance. It is possible for a character to be of multiple heritages.

Mechanically however, they are factually of that heritage and benefit from and are vulnerable to effects that affect that heritage.

 

[Yaarel]

In Norse traditions, any nature spirit can adopt or marry any other nature spirit, including humans. So it makes sense to me if a player wants a character that combines two (or more) heritages.

Individuals exist who combine various two nature spirits: wilderness spirits (jǫtnar, risar, þursar, troll), elf sunlight spirits (alfar), dwarf land spirits (dvergar), civilization-sky spirits (æsir), fertility-wind spirits (vanir), or humans. Usually, it is one group adopting an other group by means of various customs, and children resulting from the immigration can and do happen.

These blends are uncommon, but there are many when you look for them.

The Norse traditions generally have examples of individuals from various two kinds of nature spirits. Iðunn who cultivates the apples of immortality is apparently the daughter of a dvergar father and an alfar mother, but she becomes an æsir by marrying one, thus becoming a member of the æsir nature spirits. There is a story of an individual who is half risar and half human, who spent his first forty or so years among humans as a mortal, but then abandoned human life, entered the spirit world of Jǫtunheimr, and lived the rest of his life as an immortal jǫtnar spirit. Because he protected humans from other jǫtnar, he gained the nickname æsir (even tho his heritage has no relation to the æsir). The three nornir are jǫtnar who are adopted into the æsir clan, and are now æsir. These kinds of immigrations often affect the nature of these individuals, not just their location.

But three or more heritages are possible. The thunder spirit is the child of an æsir and a jǫtnar − and because of the murky phenomenon of euhemerism − there are human children who descend from him, thus blending at least three heritages.

Strictly speaking, the ‘troll’ of later folkbelief are jǫtnar, and include both goodlooking risar and grotesque þursar. However, the way troll starts to get described from medieval to modern times tends to conflate these troll with every other kind nature spirit. They might be extremely charming like an alfar, or petrify in sunlight like a dvergar, and while mostly around the size of a human can be giant towering 10 meters or more. Under the British influence, some troll are even tiny.

Essentially, the word ‘troll’ means ‘magic’ and became the loan translation for the English word ‘faierie’ which also means ‘magic’. Thus like English, ‘troll’ came to mean any kind of magical creature, namely any kind of nature spirit. The troll that many think of that are somewhat giantsize and grotesque, are properly þursar (tusser). Beautiful members such as huldrar (huldrefolk) and nykar (fossegrimer) who take after the beautiful risar side of the family, are also called ‘troll’.

Arguably these troll of later folkbelief can be understood as the offspring of multiple Norse and British nature spirits. Indeed, there are stories about troll, where a grotesque giant has a beautiful humansize daughter. Stories where some brothers are humansize and other brothers giant. Stories about beautiful male troll. And so on. And some troll have children with humans.

So, if a player wants to combine several heritage feats, as long as there is a location in the setting where it makes narrative sense, I am fine with that.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I feel the player − as part of the character concept − needs to decide how much of a heritage the character expresses.

The default race (in most settings) is human. So a feat that attributes an ability to ‘elf heritage’, allows the player to choose whether the character is fully elf or partly elf, including the possibility of a full human raised among elves or an elf raised among humans, as well as the resulting appearance. It is possible for a character to be of multiple heritages.

Mechanically however, they are factually of that heritage and benefit from and are vulnerable to effects that affect that heritage.

So the player would define how much elf the character has in them, but would count as an Elf for say a Ranger with Favored Enemy Elf? That makes sense.

What about Dwarf Feats, would they limit movement speed to 25 ft? Would halfing or gnome Feats make the character size small?

 

[Yaarel]

What about Dwarf Feats, would they limit movement speed to 25 ft? Would halfing or gnome Feats make the character size small?

How to impose a characteristic ‘flaw’ of a heritage is a good question. I am still thinking about it.

At least my initial feeling is, dont. Make such flaws part of the flaw system in the personality traits, alongside quirks and ideals. Certain heritages can recommend certain quirks, ideals, and flaws. A character flaw can easily be, ‘I tend to walk at a slower pace than most humans’.



With regard to speed, it should correlate with the Athletic skill anyway. Athletic characters can move faster, run faster, climb faster, swim faster.

I am less of a fan of slowed movement anyway, because it interferes with group movement. But at least as part of a feat, I could avoid it.



Certain feats could conceivably impose a mechanical flaw along with its mechanical benefit. Albeit, this method of flaw troubles me because a flaw tends to be easy to work around thus to be more for flavor. Giving a benefit in exchange for a flaw virtually never works.

I feel the elf heritage works best as a menu of feats to choose from. If one wants Charisma, then boost that, if one wants Misty Step then choose that, if one wants Dexterity and longbow mastery, then pick that. And so on. Ease of customizing the elf would prevent the need for an inordinate amount of elf writeups. Sun elf (eladrin) would associate with certain feats, high elf with other feats, wood, grugach, aquatic, drow, whatever. But all of them would be ‘elf heritage’, and easy to mix and match.

Also, using feats as the design space for heritage would make it easy for the DM to create and customize heritages for a setting. Just write up some feats, and players who want it will choose it.



I feel ‘size’ correlates directly with hit points and the Constitution score. So ‘Tiny’ means squishy with low Constitution (at most 5), and ‘Huge’ means tank with high Constitution (at least 21). If one wants a big character, up the Constitution. If one wants a little character think about the consequences.

Note the D&D dwarf is massive horizontally, so deserves the high Constitution score.

Something like:

CONSTITUTION SCORE: APPROXIMATE SIZE
• 25-26, 27-28: Gargantuan
• 22-23, 24-25: Huge
• 18-19, 20-21: Large
• 14-15, 16-17: Heavyweight (Medium)
• 10-11, 12-13: Lightweight (Medium)
• 6-7, 8-9: Small
• 2-3, 4-5: Tiny

 

[BookBarbarian]

How to impose a characteristic ‘flaw’ of a heritage is a good question. I am still thinking about it.

At least my initial feeling is, dont. Make such flaws part of the flaw system in the personality traits, alongside quirks and ideals. Certain heritages can recommend certain quirks, ideals, and flaws. A character flaw can easily be, ‘I tend to walk at a slower pace than most humans’.

I could see it specifically applying to something like "You can move through the space of a larger creature, you're size is small" like the halfling racial ability.

With regard to speed, it should correlate with the Athletic skill anyway. Athletic characters can move faster, run faster, climb faster, swim faster.

I am less of a fan of slowed movement anyway, because it interferes with group movement. But at least as part of a feat, I could avoid it.

I thought movement speed only applies in combat and not travel.

I feel ‘size’ correlates directly with hit points and the Constitution score. So ‘Tiny’ means squishy with low Constitution (at most 5), and ‘Huge’ means tank with high Constitution (at least 21). If one wants a big character, up the Constitution. If one wants a little character think about the consequences.

Note the D&D dwarf is massive horizontally, so deserves the high Constitution score.

Something like:

CONSTITUTION SCORE: APPROXIMATE SIZE
• 25-26, 27-28: Gargantuan
• 22-23, 24-25: Huge
• 18-19, 20-21: Large
• 14-15, 16-17: Heavyweight (Medium)
• 10-11, 12-13: Lightweight (Medium)
• 6-7, 8-9: Small
• 2-3, 4-5: Tiny

This I'm less sure about. More mass to absorb a blow certainly helps, but training can also help one absorb a blow. Bruce Lee was a small guy, but would have people drop medicine balls on him so he could learn how to deal with the impact.

Also, constitution is more than hitpoints. It's distance running, holding ones breath, resisting poison and disease. Many of the Health and Stamina portions of Constitution are not correlated to size, and some even would have a detrimental effect on a size increase.

You just don't see that many huge guys win marathons, triathlons etc.

 

[Yaarel]

I could see it specifically applying to something like "You can move through the space of a larger creature, you're size is small" like the halfling racial ability.

I like this!

I thought movement speed only applies in combat and not travel.

If I recall the rules correctly, feet correlates to miles, and a slow character reduces the distance that a party can travel on a days journey.

This I'm less sure about. More mass to absorb a blow certainly helps, but training can also help one absorb a blow. Bruce Lee was a small guy, but would have people drop medicine balls on him so he could learn how to deal with the impact.

Also, constitution is more than hitpoints. It's distance running, holding ones breath, resisting poison and disease. Many of the Health and Stamina portions of Constitution are not correlated to size, and some even would have a detrimental effect on a size increase.

You just don't see that many huge guys win marathons, triathlons etc.

Exactly! Marathons − and speed − work more realistically as an Athletics check. (Not Constitution.)

Bigger creatures are less vulnerable to poison. For example, an adult is less likely to die from a snake bite or scorpion sting, but a small child more likely.

 

[BookBarbarian]

If I recall the rules correctly, feet correlates to miles, and a slow character reduces the distance that a party can travel on a days journey.

Feet certainly correlate to miles in the real world, but the speed one can travel in 6 seconds in combat doesn't necessarily translate to how far they can march in a day. There's more factor s there than simple math.

Still I'm also not completely sure to the actual rules. But I can't recall ever seeing anything state that a dwarf gnome or halfling has a sloeer travel rate.

Exactly! Marathons − and speed − work more realistically as an Athletics check. (Not Constitution.)

Constitution (Athletics) is a valid check in the rules. And I think would apply to distance running better that Strength (Athletics) which would be more of a sprint.

I'm more inclined to remove Constitution from Hitpoints altogether as being healthy and resistant to disease doesn't necessarily correlate with being tough or resistant to physical injury. But that would probably kill a sacred cow.

 

[Yaarel]

I'm more inclined to remove Constitution from Hitpoints altogether as being healthy and resistant to disease doesn't necessarily correlate with being tough or resistant to physical injury. But that would probably kill a sacred cow.

I am also inclined to separate physical toughness from immune system (like longevity).

But it turns out, disease checks are so infrequent, it doesnt really matter where the game design puts it. Might as well bundle it with Constitution.

But I would keep Constitution to mainly represent physical toughness, including size. Big and tough is an important trope in narratives.

Currently, there is no connection between Constitution and death saves ( ≈ systemic shock), and that might seem a bit weird. But if Constitution is mostly about big and tough, then it is fine if there is a disconnect with death saves.