Making Guardinals: A community effort.

[Gez]

<snip> Having covered that ground, I'd look somewhere around the lines of the following for stats: Dex 23, Int 20, Cha 18, Wis 16, Con 15, Str 14.

<snip>

Hit dice are one of those things you'll just have to see what works. We're not talking large canid here, so obviously lupinal hit dice are a bit overpowered for it. Probably 8d4+4, or somewhere around there.

You probably meant 4d8+8. Outsider HD are 8-siders, and with Con 15 and four HD, the bonus would be +8 (+2 bonus x 4 HD). (See below for the recap.)

Base attack somewhere around a +5 or +6 I'd imagine, given that they're not all that confrontational if they can avoid it. Attacks would be similar to the lupinal, two claws (+10 at 1d4+4) and a bite (+7 at 1d6+3). F/R would be 5/5.

Saves. This is another sticking point. You're probably looking at Fort +6, Ref +13, Will +10. Those are numbers based off the relevant stats, modified slightly for their purposes. Rather close to the lupinal numbers, but not quite the same.

Base attack and saves depend on HD and ability scores, so the BAB would be +4 (with a total melee attack score of +6, and a ranged/finesse attack score of +10). All saves are good and will thus have a base bonus of +4 (2+half HD). Fortitude +6 (+2 from Con), Reflex +10 (+6 from Dex), Will +7 (+3 from Wis). You can give it the feats Iron Will and Lightning Reflexes to pump it to Ref +12 and Will +9, more in line with your proposal.

Specials would likely include SLA's, and the trip ability. Qualities of course would be celestial traits, DR 10/+1 (old 3e numbers), outsider, and scent, and likely improved init.

In revised 3e, the DR would become 5/evil or silver.

With 4 HD, it would have two feats. These are, it was said, the improved saves. Improved Init could be tacked on as a bonus racial feat.

Now, skills. Outsiders are skill monkeys, and this one has a +5 bonus from Int. That's (8+5)x(4+3) skill points (91), with a maximum of 7 ranks in any skill (then ability bonuses, racial bonuses, synergy bonuses, etc. could turn a 7 rank into an impressive final modifier).

To make things simple, let's select either 13 skills that will be maxed out; or 12 skills that will be maxed out and 7 skills that will have just one single rank (in order to be able to use them if they're trained-only).

So, the concept was rogue/wizard -- a celestial arcane trickster. So, we'll look at the Arcane Trickster class skill list as a start:

The arcane trickster's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disable Device (Int), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Gather Information (Cha), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Open Lock (Dex), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Search (Int), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Speak Language (Int), Spellcraft (Int), Spot (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex), and Use Rope (Dex).​

That's 23 skill plus the three skill tree (crafts, knowledges, professions). Let's trim!
Appraise: OK (1)
Balance: No need. Can be used untrained, and they have such a high Dex bonus anyway it's not that useful to put ranks there. Especially since guardinals can always walk on all fours to get the stability bonus.
Bluff: Definitely. (2)
Climb: No.
Concentration: Needed. (3)
Craft: OK for Alchemy. (4)
Decipher Script: OK (5)
Diplomacy: OK (6)
Disable Device: No
Disguise: No (Maybe? -1)
Escape Artist: No (Maybe? -2)
Gather Information: No
Hide: Yes (7)
Jump: No
Knowledge: At least two knowledges are needed: Arcana and The Planes. (9)
Listen: Yes (10)
Move Silently: No (Maybe? -3)
Open Lock: No
Profession: None of them, professions are a mortal's worry.
Sense Motive: No
Search: No
Sleight of Hand: No (Maybe? -4)
Speak Language: No (by virtue of high Int, already know 6 of them, plus the Guardinal trait of speaking with animals).
Spellcraft: Needed (11)
Spot: Yes (12)
Swim: No
Tumble: No (Maybe? -5)
Use Rope: No (Maybe? -6)

A skill that isn't in the AT's list, but which would be fine there anyway, is Use Magic Device. That's a seventh Maybe. Alright, there we have selected 12 skills to max out, and seven single-rankers. That's my proposal anyway.

SRD rulesy stuff:

Outsider Type: An outsider is at least partially composed of the essence (but not necessarily the material) of some plane other than the Material Plane. Some creatures start out as some other type and become outsiders when they attain a higher (or lower) state of spiritual existence.

Features: An outsider has the following features.

• 8-sided Hit Dice.
• Base attack bonus equal to total Hit Dice (as fighter).
• Good Fortitude, Reflex, and Will saves.
• Skill points equal to (8 + Int modifier, minimum 1) per Hit Die, with quadruple skill points for the first Hit Die.

Traits: An outsider possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

• Darkvision out to 60 feet.
• Unlike most other living creatures, an outsider does not have a dual nature—its soul and body form one unit. When an outsider is slain, no soul is set loose. Spells that restore souls to their bodies, such as raise dead, reincarnate, and resurrection, don’t work on an outsider. It takes a different magical effect, such as limited wish, wish, miracle, or true resurrection to restore it to life. An outsider with the native subtype can be raised, reincarnated, or resurrected just as other living creatures can be.
• Proficient with all simple and martial weapons and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
• Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Outsiders not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Outsiders are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
• Outsiders breathe, but do not need to eat or sleep (although they can do so if they wish). Native outsiders breathe, eat, and sleep.

 

[Tristol]

You probably meant 4d8+8. Outsider HD are 8-siders, and with Con 15 and four HD, the bonus would be +8 (+2 bonus x 4 HD). (See below for the recap.)

Like I said, I'm not a numbers person :> I just looked at the various books I had, compared leonal, lupinal, and cervidal, voiced what I thought was appropriate based off those, and that's what I put forth. Given that it matched the lupinal in terms of abilities and stats, I don't see too many DM's having a problem with it, and that's nothing a higher level-adjustment wouldn't fix. The HD requirement was a little off on my part. I was looking at the wrong stat-block when I wrote that in there, just didn't catch it.

The skills were a bit more detailed than I was going to put forth. It was originally asked for a a fox-like humanoid that could cast spells as a wizard. So, I imagine the skills would be more balanced towards wizard if that's the route you wanted to go. However, a rogue class would also work extremely well for this too. Given sterotypical reaction to foxes, it sort of makes sense. I much prefer the caster route, but that's just my personal preference :>

Again, I reiterate I'm not a numbers person. I just put together what I think looks good, and if it doesn't work, I change it to make it work :>

 

[Krishnath]

*Glee*

Now this is what I'm talking about, a community effort like in the old days

So, does everyone agree with the last proposed ability scores and the 4d8 HD?

The skill selection is excellent btw, Gez. Very well thought out.

 

[Gez]

Well, I was thinking it up as I was typing. Now, I wonder why I gave them a single rank in Use Rope and nothing in Open Lock -- the reverse would make more sense.

As for the wizardly part, I propose that they cast arcane spells as a wizard of their HD in level. So, if we go with the 4 HD I proposed, every single vulpinal would be a fourth-level wizard for spellcasting. They could complete that with spell-like abilities (yes, fox's cunning is a logical choice). Any class level of wizard would stack with their four "racial levels" -- so a 1st-level vulpinal wizard would cast spells as a 5th-level wizard.

 

[Krishnath]

Well, I was thinking it up as I was typing. Now, I wonder why I gave them a single rank in Use Rope and nothing in Open Lock -- the reverse would make more sense.

As for the wizardly part, I propose that they cast arcane spells as a wizard of their HD in level. So, if we go with the 4 HD I proposed, every single vulpinal would be a fourth-level wizard for spellcasting. They could complete that with spell-like abilities (yes, fox's cunning is a logical choice). Any class level of wizard would stack with their four "racial levels" -- so a 1st-level vulpinal wizard would cast spells as a 5th-level wizard.

I was thinking the same, infact, I would add something like this:

Spells: A vulpinal cast spells as a 4th level wizard gaining bonus spells for its high intelligence score. For each racial HD that the vulpinal advances by, its effective wizard level increases by 1. Thus a 12HD vulpinal would know and cast spells as a 12th level wizard. This innate spellcasting stacks with the spellcasting gained from the wizard class. Thus a 4HD vulpinal with 5 levels of wizard would know and cast spells as a 9th level wizard.

I'll go update the stat block.

 

[Shade]

For speed, how about 40 feet like a fox? (They were in Dragon #291).

 

[Krishnath]

For speed, how about 40 feet like a fox? (They were in Dragon #291).

Sounds logical to me.

Anyone have any ideas on natural armor, I was thinking +3, what do y'all think?

 

[Gez]

About the natural wizard part, can a Vulpinal be specialized "from birth" or not? They shouldn't become a specialist wizard (class) if they aren't a specialist wizard (race).

 

[Krishnath]

About the natural wizard part, can a Vulpinal be specialized "from birth" or not? They shouldn't become a specialist wizard (class) if they aren't a specialist wizard (race).

I would say no. But that is my personal preference, let's make it up to each and every DM by not mentioning it.

 

[Tristol]

I would say no. But that is my personal preference, let's make it up to each and every DM by not mentioning it.

Let's see, there were a few posts I figured I'd toss the chips back in on. First, 40ft for a movement sound good to. I was just using standard human numbers as well, you are talking human. But given that they've got the all fours ability and such, it makes sense for a 40 to be there as well. Natural armor should be somewhere 2 or 3, but nothing much more than that. Foxes would rely primarily on their dex and relative size (talking about 4 legged variety for justification) to avoid attacks, rather than letting their body deflect it.

Lastly, the casting ability. I don't particularly see why not. Makes great sense for it to not just be a pure race and ability thing. The specialization I do believe should be left up to the DM. While the general feeling you get from the 'guidebook' is that specialization should be when you start taking wizard levels, I've never approved of that. If you've ever done anything you could specialize in, then you've likely tried it out, played with it a bit, and decided 'I like this more' than another particular item. So to me it makes sense to specialize after a few levels when you've got a feel for the magic. If you decide to specialize later in the game, your caster level for your taboo schools would decrease greatly, rather than just loosing it entirely (it's not like you rip the pages out of your spellbook or forget how to cast them.. you just aren't as good any more at it). Of course, that's getting away from the point. To recap, don't mention the specialization. It's nice for the player to have the option if they want to at some point, that way it's there.

As an aside, I was thinking about one of the things Tristol had as an aasimar, which sort of makes sense here. A racial bonus to listen. Yep, we're already looking at a high listen score in terms of assigned skill points, but a racial bonus here would certainly work well, and keeps in line with the natural fox. Foxes have those big ears for a reason and can often pin down things under layers of leaves and brush so that they can pounce on it. I believe at the time, I was using a +10 bonus, which worked out well for the higher level characters, so it might want to be considered an option here.

And what are we going to do about the level adjustment and ECL? I figure the ECL should still be 5-6 for various reasons, but the level adjustment. Based off the new hit-die of 4d8, are we looking at a different adjustment, or are we thinking of changing this. And did we decide on improved init for a racial feat, or were we leaving that off? Just making sure we tie up loose ends I guess.