Making guns palatable in high fantasy [Design Theory]

[TheAuldGrump]

In the campaigns in which I have seen firearms work, they were still very primitive and took forever to load. This seemed to minimize the possibility of them becoming overpowering.

That is a common misconception.

Early guns were faster to reload than a heavy crossbow, and much easier to learn than a longbow. They had a short learning period and an increased rate of fire.

Accuracy... not so much. A gunner typically closed his eyes while firing, to protect his eyes from sparks. Short ranged and fired in volleys, against ranks and battles of massed troops. Accuracy wasn't needed.

A cranquin on an arballista is much, much slower, but the crossbow is also much more accurate than an arquebus. For hunting the crossbow won out, especially in nations where freemen were allowed to have weapons, giving rise to the Swiss as premiere crossbowmen, and the legend of William Tell.

By the eighteenth century guns had become standardized, and the RoF of a skilled gunman using a Brown Bess was up to four rounds a minute - I can manage three with that same gun. I am not that skilled, but I can fire three times in the course of an AD&D combat round.... (I hated one minute combat rounds. No, really.) Accuracy had also much improved. The gun had become a hunting and fowling piece, not just a tool of war.

The Auld Grump, I wish that I still had my Bess.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Though I rarely use firearms in my fantasy, these thoughts recur to me each time I think about it:

1) historically, they existed in the time period echoed in most high fantasy.

2) gunpowder & firearms make Alchemists more viable as a standalone class.

3) Musketeers, and their fantasy firearm wielding analogs, can be fun.

4) Harry Turtledove's entire Darkness series is great fantasy- if you like real magic guns, check this series out.

 

[Relique du Madde]

People keep forgetting the two main problems with early black powder firearms:

1) Water ruins powder.
2) Powder explodes.

Realistically, any army facing an army with a wizard / druid / priest would be hosed since every day of battle would become a perpetual rainstorm if they are lucky, or a fiery inferno if they are not.

That is assuming wizards did not devise means of protecting the firearms through spells or incantations. Also, I would expect wizards to use guns since it could save them when they run out of spells.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

People keep forgetting the two main problems with early black powder firearms:

1) Water ruins powder.
2) Powder explodes.

Realistically, any army facing an army with a wizard / druid / priest would be hosed since every day of battle would become a perpetual rainstorm if they are lucky, or a fiery inferno if they are not.

That is assuming wizards did not devise means of protecting the firearms through spells or incantations. Also, I would expect wizards to use guns since it could save them when they run out of spells.

You say that powder explodes like it was a bad thing.

It also leaves out the fact that blackpowder + fog = nasty, horrible, stinking smog that burns your eyes and your lungs, and clings to your clothes through a wash cycle, so you have to do it again. And the smog hangs low, hugging the ground, making it hard to see more than thirty feet if you are in a valley.

I love blackpowder.

I would suggest the creation of the paper cartridge to hold the powder in premeasured quantities, kept in a fireproof pouch, with a flap that covers the charges. Or premeasure the powder into ceramic bottles, that can be used to speed reloading, as well as protecting the powder from both rain and premature ignition... No magic needed. Yes, these were the real world solutions - the little ceramic bottles were called apostles - a gunner typically carried twelve of them....

Of the two problems, rain is actually the more difficult to handle.

*EDIT* Dampened powder could actually be reclaimed - wetted down more thoroughly, recaked, then run through the sieve again.

The Auld Grump

 

[Plane Sailing]

Is it too early to mention the Peasant Railgun ?

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Peasant_Railgun

 

[Plane Sailing]

Seriously though, I think Umbran nailed the real issue back on page 1.

However, on a more general point, it might be instructive to investigate and compare the relative lethality of spears and bullets, for instance.

 

[Hassassin]

Back in the day (fifties, sixties, early seventies) there were a fair number of gunpowder fantasy writers - Hodgeson, deCamp, Tolkien (yeah, that guy), Smith, several authors named White, Burroughs, Norton, Howard, Kornbluth, Wagner.... Unknown Magazine had a large number of them.

After Tolkien (yeah, that guy, again) high fantasy became sort of stuck in the high middle ages.

Regarding fantasy fiction in a post-middle age setting, the Temeraire series has been very enjoyable so far. Partly because I have a soft spot for fantasy without magic.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Regarding fantasy fiction in a post-middle age setting, the Temeraire series has been very enjoyable so far. Partly because I have a soft spot for fantasy without magic.

Good series.

And my first thought on seeing the author was 'Nerd girl! ' - a glad cry, I assure you. There were nowhere near enough nerd girls when I was growing up. (My brother's memory and mine differ a great deal in regards to my adolescent years - I like his memories of my teenage days better, they have more girls in them.)

The Auld Grump

 

[Derren]

Regarding fantasy fiction in a post-middle age setting, the Temeraire series has been very enjoyable so far. Partly because I have a soft spot for fantasy without magic.

Agree with Temeraire. Great series. But it can't really be compared to D&D much as it does not invent a world, but instead takes real world history and just adds fantasy elements to it.

And some food for thought:
The "golden age" of full plate armor: 15th-16th century
First mention of a Bombard 14th century.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Agree with Temeraire. Great series. But it can't really be compared to D&D much as it dies not invent a world, but instead takes real world history and just adds fantasy elements to it.

And some food for thought:
The "golden age" of full plate armor: 15th-16th century
First mention of a Bombard 14th century.

Dardanelles siege bombard: 15th C. Last fired in combat: 1807.... They just don't make guns like they useta....

The Auld Grump