Making guns palatable in high fantasy [Design Theory]

[howandwhy99]

My counterpoint to that is, if guns are so expensive to create, so dangerous to operate and no more lethal than anything else you already have, then why make them?

We make them because they effect a desired end more capably than other weapons depending upon the situation. This doesn't mean we stop making other weapons, but some do become obsolete over time. This doesn't mean other weapons stop having value, just that judgement has been the unique situations they excel in aren't as common or sought out currently.

 

[mmadsen]

My counterpoint to that is, if guns are so expensive to create, so dangerous to operate and no more lethal than anything else you already have, then why make them?

When guns finally became common, they weren't expensive, they weren't especially dangerous to operate, and they weren't more lethal than the alternatives. In fact, they were considered almost perfectly comparable to crossbows, and military expeditions, like those of the conquistadors, often included equal complements of gunmen and crossbowmen.

That's why it makes a certain sense to "reskin" crossbows as matchlock guns in D&D. The "problem" is that D&D doesn't handle crossbows particularly well either, if your goal is to have missile weapons that can kill a man or a deer with one shot (or not with five or six).

 

[cattoy]

crossbows don't even enter into it.

Remember, this thread is about fantasy RPG design and firearms, so real-life arguments hold little water.

Even so, big crossbows were typically built to be cocked using a combination of body weight and leg strength.

My question is: Why would you create that first generation of guns that cost more than a magical or mundane equivalent, were no mechanically better, had significant drawbacks or flaws etc?

Because if you introduce the first generation of gun to D&D, it looks horribly bad compared to a heavy crossbow, a wand of magic missiles, necklace of fireballs or anything else that the game already features. Add to this the fact that there are already alchemical devices and magic spells that cause things to catch fire and you're just creating an expensive way to commit suicide...

The other factor to consider is that fantasy RPGs are almost universally set in a state of technological stagnation. In almost any fantasy setting, if you get sent off to a quest to recover the sword of an ancient hero, it's a good thing, because swords back then were just as awesome as swords today, if not better. Ditto for ancient tomes of lost mystic knowledge, legendary suits of armor, yadda yadda yadda. Guns don't work and play well with this sort of environment because we know that guns start a cycle of evolution that ends with something that is entirely incompatible with the basic design philosophy of D&D.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Most of my games are renaissance or later - with developments built in over time. (I will admit to cheating - I use the Timelines of History, rather than just trying to remember to sandwich things in.)

The dwarfs in my homebrew helped disseminate Agricola's De Re Metallica, Three Books of Occult Philosophy was used in universities, etc..

I like technological change.

The Auld Grump

 

[Herobizkit]

Way I see things, the only time ranged weapons are of any real use is if you have a character who is specialized (ie. taken feats, has relevant class features, etc) in their use.

The Archer-style Ranger is the most obvious of this type, followed by a Rogue who focuses on Ranged Sneak Attacks, or getting extra damage via Combat Advantage. The Ranger tends to be nearly as annoying by himself as a party with only one character spec'd in Mounted Combat.

Only in 4e have I seen the value of a dedicated non-magical ranged combatant "out of the box" at level 1.

 

[gamerprinter]

Well, historically, I'm a guy who'd declare "keep your guns outta my D&D", however, I'm currently building a partial setting and adventure for Rite Publishing's upcoming Adventure Quarterly magazine, based on a gothic old west environment (analog for Arizona in the 1880's), which of course is designed for Pathfinder Gunslingers. And since it's 'analog 1880's' guns aren't expensive in that setting.

In fact, I just finished building (with Will "Cheapy" Cardill's assistance) a Magus alternate class called the Shootist, though capable of using single shot pistols, muskets, rifles and revolvers - revolvers is what the niche class has been especially designed for that will be featured in the adventure.

So as long as the setting is genre specific for guns, I'm all for it. But I still don't want guns in my standard D&D.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

Way I see things, the only time ranged weapons are of any real use is if you have a character who is specialized (ie. taken feats, has relevant class features, etc) in their use.

The Archer-style Ranger is the most obvious of this type, followed by a Rogue who focuses on Ranged Sneak Attacks, or getting extra damage via Combat Advantage. The Ranger tends to be nearly as annoying by himself as a party with only one character spec'd in Mounted Combat.

Only in 4e have I seen the value of a dedicated non-magical ranged combatant "out of the box" at level 1.

Let us just say that my experience does not agree with yours, on any level.

The Auld Grump

 

[Fanaelialae]

Only in 4e have I seen the value of a dedicated non-magical ranged combatant "out of the box" at level 1.

3.5 Human Fighter
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot

And you're good to go.

 

[Herobizkit]

Haaaah, I stand corrected.

I always forget about those darn humans.

And [MENTION=6957]TheAuldGrump[/MENTION], how so? I'm curious.

 

[KidSnide]

Way I see things, the only time ranged weapons are of any real use is if you have a character who is specialized (ie. taken feats, has relevant class features, etc) in their use.

First of all, ranged weapons have plenty of use for NPCs. I think it is common for gun-era campaigns to feature lots of combats against other humanoids.

Second, ranged weapons also have a role in combat scenarios where getting into melee range is difficult. Grenades (historical for age of exploration games) are also useful when the PCs need more area attacks.

-KS