Making "level" king again in 3.x

[Aus_Snow]

Interesting. I have found it a great deal easier to 'incorporate gear abilities into characters'. As a matter of fact, that's where some of my more fundamental 3e house rules kick in.

But sure, CR is certainly not every DM's idea of fun (or balanced.)

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

See the magic item creation rules in the 3.5e DMG? Just change your thinking around, instead of building a magic item allow characters to use it to build magic "powers incorporated into their character. Ignore the gp costs and run it from XP costs, now at each level you give each PC a pool of "power XP" that they spend to buy abilities using this system. Anything they don't spend rolls over to the next level. Wealth by level guidelines can be used to tweak the exact amount. However a good idea would be to up the BAB like Iron Heroes did so +x is no longer important and they can concentrate on cool stuff like flaming burst, thunderous, etc.

 

[Imp]

On my to-do list for a good long while has been making an affiliations-based training system that can be used to shunt gold into training-based bonuses that'll replace the item-christmas-tree stat buffers. "You have completed the Trial of the Web of Blades, you gain a +1 training bonus to Dexterity," that sort of thing.

You can probably make fatigue, starvation, or other effects temporarily dampen these kinds of bonuses.

I haven't seen the two publications Psion has mentioned.

 

[Reynard]

The first step, I think, would be trying to put together some sort of matrix showing how attacks bonuses, saves, skills, damage potential, etc... increase over levels without any magical aid (probably based on 'moderate munchkining). That being done, it should possible to rebuild the CR system - or at least a "level" system for foes -- based on that.

 

[Geron Raveneye]

Well, you have two choices...either "up" the power level of the characters so they can take on standard high-CR monsters and survive high-level special effects without magical augmentation, or tone down those effects.

A way to do the first would be to hand out ability raises more often (maybe 1/3 levels instead of 1/4), and raise the Saving Throw bonus across the row (maybe by 50%, or even double it). A few more skill points for most classes won't hurt either. That would take care of reducing ability buffs, save buffs and skill buffs. Other stuff, like immunity items won't go away as easily, and magical weapons and armor simply belong into D&D like rings of protection.

The other alternative would involve making the higher-level stuff more survivable for a group without magical gear...I don't know how to change the numbers in detail, but I'd say reducing the power of those effects and monsters by 25-30% should be a good start. This should affect the Save DCs of special abilities as well as the frequency. Other challenges should also have slightly decreased DCs in order to make sure they still can be beaten. I'd rather do this by eyeballing the group in question, look at their resources, and then decide what to throw at them instead of trying to take a wrench to the whole system.

 

[The Levitator]

My players also dislike 3.5's reliance on magical items. They want to be the heroes, not their equipment. To that end, I've made a lot of changes to our system to put the power more to the characters and not what they can afford to buy or are lucky enough to find. Keep in mind that we prefer a low-fantasy/high magic power world.

These are the big changes:

4 bonus skill points @ 1st to use for Craft, Knowledge, Perform or Profession skills.

Bonus feats every other level, instead of every 3 levels.

Ability increases: 1 pt. @ 3rd lvl., 1 pt. to ALL scores @ 6th lvl., 1 pt. @ 9th lvl., and 1 pt. to ALL scores @ 12th lvl.

I also created non-magical weapons that go from -1 to +3 to offset the reliance on magical weapons at lower-mid levels. These weapons are still pricey, but cheaper and easier to find than their magical equivalents. For example, an Exquisite longsword (+3) costs 10,115 gp., which is a bit cheaper than its magical equivalent (18,315).

 

[Phaeryx]

I don't like a campaign with magic items available for sale. It doesn't resonate with the kind of fantasy stories I like. The "magic item shop on every street corner" concept feels lazy to me and reeks of the mundane (our modern service-oriented society) in a world that should be exotic and epic in scope.

I'm also against the random placing of magic items as treasure. I think it's the DM's responsibility to get the right magic items into the players' hands at the right time, by knowing what they need or what they want and deserve, either through play or talking to the players outside of the game.

I've never read a fantasy story (and I don't care to) in which the hero had to spend a pile of gold to get the local wizard to enchant a sword for him, or in which the fabulous sword was picked up at the shop down the block. In stories magic items are given as gifts from powerful and mysterious patrons as often as they are found, and when they are found, they are often stumbled upon in a manner that seems both pre-destined and the result of dumb luck.

My point is that the DM is the DM. Making magic items unpurchasable makes them seem rare and special. It does not mean they cannot be used to boost PC power, or that an alternate system needs inventing to boost PC power. It just means the DM must decide where and when and how the PCs get the items, and that can be fun. It can help drive a story forward as well. And then, of course, the players have their piles of gold to spend on bribes and strongholds, or what have you.

 

[shilsen]

From this thread on wealth in the 4e forum.




I am reassessing 3.x in light of the fact that 4E holds almost no appeal to me, but this issue is a very real one in 3E. Given that we've had 7 years to discover alternatives and methods by which to do this, what's the best way to remove or at least mitigate the issue of "gear" in 3.x without rewriting the entire system (ex Iron Heroes)?

It's quite easy, IMNSHO. Simply slide over a bunch of the things that gear provides to level-based bonuses, while retaining their types. I'm especially thinking of the following:

Resistance bonus to saves
Enhancement bonuses to stats
Deflection bonuses to AC
Enhancement bonuses to natural armor

Maybe also make enhancement bonuses to weapons and armor a factor of level too. For example, a PC could have a +1 resistance bonus (max +5) to saves for every 3 levels, a +1 deflection bonus to AC for every 3 levels, etc.

The result is that PCs are at about the same mechanical position as ones equipped normally in 3e/3.5e, but don't have to rely on equipment to do so. A small, but not inconsiderable advantage of this approach is that retaining the bonus types means they don't stack with spells (as such magic items don't) and avoid creating balance problems as untyped bonuses would.

 

[Reynard]

It's quite easy, IMNSHO. Simply slide over a bunch of the things that gear provides to level-based bonuses, while retaining their types. I'm especially thinking of the following:

Resistance bonus to saves
Enhancement bonuses to stats
Deflection bonuses to AC
Enhancement bonuses to natural armor

Maybe also make enhancement bonuses to weapons and armor a factor of level too. For example, a PC could have a +1 resistance bonus (max +5) to saves for every 3 levels, a +1 deflection bonus to AC for every 3 levels, etc.

The result is that PCs are at about the same mechanical position as ones equipped normally in 3e/3.5e, but don't have to rely on equipment to do so. A small, but not inconsiderable advantage of this approach is that retaining the bonus types means they don't stack with spells (as such magic items don't) and avoid creating balance problems as untyped bonuses would.

I continue to find it interesting that most people are suggesting a PC inherent power increase to match the effects of gear, rather than a reassessment of challenge difficulties to take into account for the PCs lower bonus totals. Note, by the way, that I am not suggestinga complete lack of items, but rather the removal of wealth-by-level and forgoing the whole "big six" mentality.

Let's look at an adult red dragon (CR 15) vs a group of 12th level PCs. (+3 CR vs APL is a good rating for a BBEG encounter, I think.)

The Dragon's AC is 29, versus the front line fighter's likely +16 or 18 bonus (+12 BAB, plsu +4 from strength or so, plus Weapon Focus). That is a 40% chance to hit for the front liner, prior to spell buffs and the like. Now, that same fighter with a strength item and a powerful magic sword brings his bonus up to the +20 to +25 range, which is a huge shift in ability to hit.

On the flip side, the dragon has a +31 to hit, against an AC of 20-ish for full plate and a shield, without augmentation. No contest. Even magic items, though, only bring the PC's AC up to maybe 25 at 12th level, unless the character is a turtler in which case you might garner a total of +4 or +5 from feats and other specific AC related abilities. In no case does the dragon have a hard time hitting.

The dragons saves are +18 Fort/+13 Ref/+17 Will vs DCs in the range of 18 to 21 or so (5th level spell, +4 int bonus, + some feats to build it up). Throw in an int item and a metamgaic rod, though, and at least the lightning bolts have a decent change of doing damage. Except, of course, for the SR, which is a 30-40% buffer for the dragon.

The dragon take a lot of hurting with 253 hit points. If the wizard averages 33% of his Lightning Bolt potential (average dice rolls and then half that again half the time), that is 20 points of damage a round for 7 rounds. 140. over those same 7 rounds, the unaugmented (except for a +1 sword) warrior is going to do 10 points of damage or so a round -- he can't power attack, because the hit probability isn't great, but he's got a decent strength, he is going to hit maybe 1/2 the time, and he can keep going until he's down. The rogue is actually a more effective combatant in this case; the flanking bonus makes up for the difference in BAB and the rogue is doing 7d6 (light weapon + sneak attack) vs the fighter types 3d6+6ish (greatsword + strength + weapon spec). The cleric actually suddenly becomes the most important PC in this kind of battle, because without magical gear, the clerics buff spells are the only thing that can really push the other characters over the edge.

The dragon is doing a ridiculous amount of damage every round. No PC has an AC to stop the dragon's attack bonus, so it can conceivably full attack every round for about 80 points of damage (basic Huge dragon damage, +11 strength damage bonus). Assuming the 12th level barbarian has a decent con, it still only takes 2 rounds to kill him outright. if the dragon breathes agaon, with an average of 60 hp damage and a save DC of 26, only the rogue PC is living through it -- everyone else has abysmal saves and only te fighter types have enough hit points to take it... maybe. One round of hitting everyone with the breath weapon and one round of divvying up a full attack should result in a TPK. Once you factor in cloaks of resistance and the like, though, the PCs survivability increases dramatically.

However, I think all this raw power in the dragon is a function of the assumed level of the PCs with gear, rather than vice versa. 1E dragons were essentially pushovers in compariosn -- 88 hit points and doing an average of 30 points of damage with a breath weapon -- and 2E dragons touchened up a bit versus PCs that didn't change a whole lot. Evidence in stat blocks suggests that when they decided to CR dragons, they used the new level+gear paradigm in determining how badass the dragons should be.

So, scaling back the dragon -- the BAB, the AC, the hit points and the SR and DC on the breath save --should be enough to make a moderately well equipped but not "wealth by level"ed party have an reasonable change of winning a similar encounter.

(NOTE: most of the above is off the cuff with d20srd.org as my reference, so there's probably some holes in that argument.)

 

[Imp]

I continue to find it interesting that most people are suggesting a PC inherent power increase to match the effects of gear

The one seems to be a (much) smaller task than the other, honestly.