Making Vancian Casting More "Linear" and Less "Quadratic"

[Daztur]

I don't mind wizards having only a few spells a day at low level (I like it a lot in fact, but putting in feats that swap spell slots for at-will spells seems like good design since people who like it can use them and I can ban them all ) but Vancian magic is an example of things that work OK a low levels not working well when you keep on extrapolating them since the number of spells you can get just explodes insanely a high levels and managing that many spells is a pain.

 

[Leatherhead]

If they do decide to go with 3e-style multiclassing, it is particularly important that caster level not exist in the new system. Why even bother taking only 1 level of a spellcasting class when many of the spells will be useless? What is really wrong with a 19th level fighter/1st level wizard having a few full-powered magic missiles each day? Why would he ever bother to waste a turn casting a spell that only does 1d4 + 1 damage at that level? Having no CL means that everything will remain relevant throughout all levels of play and be consistent and balanced.

Doing 1d4+1 damage with a standard action at level 20 isn't worth anyone's time. Removing CL makes all magic misses 1d4+1 forever. Even in 4e, at-will attacks gained power as the character leveled up.

Damage has to scale to keep up with hit point inflation, or else the game suffers that padded sumo problem.

 

[variant]

One way would be to have a simple 'Spell Slot' category, this progresses as you level up. Each level of spell takes up its equivalent level in slots to prepare. So a level 1 spell takes 1 slot and a level 9 spell takes up 9. You then decide whether you want to prepare 9 level 1 spells, or 1 level 9 spell.

Your number of spell slots increases as you level, but so do the more powerful spells. You could have the option to prepare certain spells with more spell slots which would increase the level of the spell. This would allow for various modifiers including at will.

This way you aren't just stuck with a bunch of level 1 spells that will ultimately be useless. You could also balance the power curve easier.

I don't like Vancian either, but if we have to have something that looks like it I'd like to see something along the lines of this:

Encounter would just mean spells that can be re-prepared after 5 minutes of rest, instead of 6 hours rest. And most spells would be able to scale to higher spell levels.

I am quite hopeful, 'encounters' won't exist anymore in 5e.

 

[Leatherhead]

One way would be to have a simple 'Spell Slot' category, this progresses as you level up. Each level of spell takes up its equivalent level in slots to prepare. So a level 1 spell takes 1 slot and a level 9 spell takes up 9. You then decide whether you want to prepare 9 level 1 spells, or 1 level 9 spell.

Your number of spell slots increases as you level, but so do the more powerful spells. You could have the option to prepare certain spells with more spell slots which would increase the level of the spell. This would allow for various modifiers including at will.

This way you aren't just stuck with a bunch of level 1 spells that will ultimately be useless. You could also balance the power curve easier.

That's just a Mana Point system by another name. It invalidates character progression by making all the stuff you have previously learned become absolutely useless, because you aren't even using them! Just blow all your spell slots on the top level stuff and don't bother with magic missile when you have lighting bolt.

 

[variant]

That's just a Mana Point system by another name. It invalidates character progression by making all the stuff you have previously learned become absolutely useless, because you aren't even using them! Just blow all your spell slots on the top level stuff and don't bother with magic missile when you have lighting bolt.

No, it isn't. A mana system isn't fire and forget, you use points on a selective pool of spells as many times as you have the points.

Low level spells are already useless at high level as they are now. There are only a handful of low level spells that are worth using and the rest are just taking up space. Allowing you to use the power you have gained at low level by putting it towards your high level spells means it actually becomes useful.

 

[Blackwarder]

I always liked the rule in 2e about learning times for spells, when a 1st level spell took 10 minutes to memorize and a 3rd level spell took 1 hour to memorize. We had a house rule that allowed wizards to relearn every spell in their book during the day but every time they cast one above their number of spells per day they had to make a saving throw vs poison (I think it's been 15 years) and on fail they become exhausted and can't cast any more spells that day.

Our inspiration was Reistlin.

Warder

 

[Leatherhead]

No, it isn't. A mana system isn't fire and forget, you use points on a selective pool of spells as many times as you have the points.

Fire and forget is pure fluff. The second point fits this system to a "T", the only appreciable difference is when you spend the points.

Low level spells are already useless at high level as they are now.

And this is something that should change.

 

[variant]

Fire and forget is pure fluff. The second point fits this system to a "T", the only appreciable difference is when you spend the points.

Fire and forget isn't pure fluff. It defines what the Vancian system is. You need to make choices on what exact spells you have memorized for the day. Spell point systems are the complete opposite, you are always guaranteed to have the perfect spell for the exact moment you need it.

 

[FireLance]

I am quite hopeful, 'encounters' won't exist anymore in 5e.

Eh, if they don't, and if the 5e OGL/GSL is permissive enough, I'll write up an optional module for encounter abilities and sell it on RPGNow within a month. I'm certainly not going to complain if WotC hands me a money-making opportunity like that on a silver platter.

 

[FireLance]

It invalidates character progression by making all the stuff you have previously learned become absolutely useless, because you aren't even using them! Just blow all your spell slots on the top level stuff and don't bother with magic missile when you have lighting bolt.

An approach that could work is for the power of a spell to scale with spell level instead directly with caster level. Caster level still influences spell power indirectly through the highest level of spell you can cast.

So maybe as a 1st-level spell, magic missile creates one magical bolt that automatically hits for 1d4+1 force damage. For every additional spell level, you get two extra bolts, so you get 17 bolts if you cast magic missile as a 9th-level spell.