Making Vancian Casting More "Linear" and Less "Quadratic"

[Doug McCrae]

I think that one spell per day hasn't been true even at first level literally for decades. Second edition specialist wizards could manage two and third edition three at first level.

And 1e clerics get three spells at 1st level, provided they have a Wisdom of 14 or higher. It's quite different from OD&D.

 

[Zustiur]

I think that one spell per day hasn't been true even at first level literally for decades. Second edition specialist wizards could manage two and third edition three at first level. (This ignores cantrips). And yes, even one spell per day that is (a) completely reliable and (b) contains no risk. And (c) just takes a small amount of time to prepare and can be cast in a single action. You might not get much of it, but that doesn't make it other than cheap. Expensive magic is WFRP style (2e or 3e). Where using magic has a risk of demons coming to either posess you or eat your face. Or magic Call of Cthulu style where using magic costs sanity - an almost non-renewable resource. As it is, every day you are allowed for trivial effort and no long term consequences to re-write the rules of reality.

Got it. You weren't using the definition of cheap that I thought you were using. It makes much more sense now.
However, I believe when WheresMyD20 said "Being able to throw a weak magic attack every single round cheapens magic." he wasn't using your definition of cheap either. His statement was around the idea that magic is expensive because it is limited (per day); whereas being able to throw magic missiles every round is free. Free is cheaper than limited.
Also, there's a possibility that he meant it in the 'less cool' sense - like when we say "Kicking someone in the groin is a cheap trick".

Then possibly you're unaware how much of an outlier D&D mages are.

Undoubtedly.
The result being that I'm not trying to use novels to explain how the game should work in my eyes.

The point you miss by bringing up balance is that (as 4e has demonstrated) there is no balance issue with wizards being able to cast magic missile at will rather than falling back on a crossbow. It's a way of feeling cool even if the crossbow bolt is technically stronger. And there's nothing wrong with feeling cool. Where the wizard dominates is that the fighter basically starts with the ability to get somewhere on his own two feet or whatever he rides, and his end goal is to stick a sharpened piece of metal in someone. The wizard starts off much the same - but it's the long distance teleports, the major illusions, invisibility, charm person, etc. that gives them far more power than the fighter in the long run. To hit someone with a sword you need to reach them...

Interesting. So, putting balance aside; how is "being able to cast magic missile at will rather than falling back on a crossbow" not cheap?
You appear to be championing a reduction of the availability of magic on one hand, while simultaneously championing the increase in the availability of magic on the other hand. Unless you feel that magic should be cheap in DND?

Regardless, making magic missile or similar spells into a reusable spell doesn't do anything to make the casters less quadratic.

 

[Neonchameleon]

His statement was around the idea that magic is expensive because it is limited (per day); whereas being able to throw magic missiles every round is free. Free is cheaper than limited.

But limited per day isn't expensive. It's just slow. And not even slow where the rubber meets the road.

Interesting. So, putting balance aside; how is "being able to cast magic missile at will rather than falling back on a crossbow" not cheap?
You appear to be championing a reduction of the availability of magic on one hand, while simultaneously championing the increase in the availability of magic on the other hand. Unless you feel that magic should be cheap in DND?

I have nothing against cheap magic per se. I just see there to be two distinct magical paradigms, and D&D to be for all practical purposes already in the cheap magic paradigm.

In a cheap magic paradigm (textbook example: Harry Potter), there are people whose main focus and main contribution is the magic they can use. The costs for both recharging and casting spells are very low, and wizards reach for the right tool for the job, which is normally magic. There are limits to magical power in a cheap magical paradigm - and mages need not be that powerful. What they are is safe and reliable.

In an expensive magic paradigm (for example the Lord of the Rings), even the most skilled of loremasters don't like casting spells as they are likely to make the situation bad with their cost or their backlash. For normal combat they prefer swords - at least if you lose with a sword you will only end up dead and there are worse fates. Far worse fates. Wizards are normally loremasters first, and spellcasters only when they are already up creek - at least magic can provide a paddle. (The 3.5 Bard is arguably a viable expensive magic class (sage who uses sword before magic) but even there it's still too cheap).

Both paradigms work. But the existance of a wizard class that gets free spells to cast, and very little other than spellcasting, makes D&D magic cheap. As does handing wizards some pretty powerful spells they can use regularly. But as things stand, by the pretense that magic is expensive for wizards makes for problems in all directions.

Regardless, making magic missile or similar spells into a reusable spell doesn't do anything to make the casters less quadratic.

It doesn't actually do anything to make them more quadratic either. Ultimately what it does is if wizards exist in a cheap magic paradigm (as I think they do in D&D) colours in this paradigm and allows them to be masters of magic, able to create minor effects without serious effort.

 

[Mattachine]

At-will minor attacks does help make the wizard less quadratic, in that it removes the "start super-weak, gradually improve, then outstrip everyone else" dynamic at low level.

If you are going to make the class linear like other classes, then it has to start on similar footing. To me, similar footing means being able to use your class features in most encounters, not just a couple a day.

 

[concjo]

There are a number of underlying assumptions in this statement which may or may not be true:

1. All players enjoy hacking through encounters that are there just to wear them down.

2. All of a character's resources are regained after a short rest.

The first is a matter of taste. The second is a matter of game design, and while I suppose it is possible to design a game in which all of a character's resources are regained after a short rest, that is completely different from allowing a character to regain some resources after a short rest.

There are again some more assumptions here that may or may not be true (apart from the "recover all" vs. "recover some" assumption that has already been pointed out):

1. There are no short deadlines.

2. All fights are against foes of equal difficulty.

For the former, deadlines measured in days are obviously less relevant when resources can be wholly or partially regained in a matter of minutes. All this means is that when deadlines are used, they have to be shorter. No doubt, this places some restrictions on the type of scenarios that can be run (as the adventurers might comically put it, "Why am I always told to rescue the princess one hour before she is to be sacrificed? It would be nice if they could inform me three days in advance for a change."). Another alternative, which verges into house rule territory, is to change the length of a "short" rest. Even though the rulebook might define it as five minutes, a DM might choose to extend it to an hour or even a day if t suits his playstyle better.

For the latter, if some fights are against tougher opponents, charged and one-shot magic items will help to even the odds. In addition, on the assumption that an element of luck or chance will still be involved, they can act as safety nets that help the PCs recover from a run of bad luck.

1. This is based off of my experiences with various gaming groups as a DM and player for 20+ years. So, it's not an assumption.
2. EVERYTHING (regarding rules) is an assumption as there are no official rules on it. DUH..

3. Have you ever run a module? Yes, there are deadlines that are measured in days and either can't be moved or don't make sense to move the deadline into hours/minutes. YOU are now making the assumptions that all deadlines could/should be moved.... Yes, i could house rule everything as a DM, but that's not really what we're talking about.

4. You are once again missing the point.... If there are essentially no "wear down" fights, the group is at somewhere near full power. To actually make ANY fight challenging, they would need to be more over the top. Some of the funniest things have happened with non-threatening fights that were just there to use up some resources.

5. Who drinks a potion of cure light wounds in a boss fight? NO ONE past level 3.... No need for a potion of haste, because your mage has that back after a short rest... Why bother with any scrolls, potions or wands at all really. With a short rest, you always have the resources you need. You could also argue that it reduces the usefullness of some scrying, scouting and some things around preparation. Need a knock, wait 5 minutes. I normally just memorize all blasty spells to be 100% effective, but now i'll take a breather and get that remove disease, knock, etc.

 

[FireLance]

1. This is based off of my experiences with various gaming groups as a DM and player for 20+ years. So, it's not an assumption.

The assumption you are making is that everyone enjoys that playstyle. The fact that you have not come across any such gamers in 20+ years does not change the fact that it is still an assumption. (For the record, I've been gaming for a little over 28 years now, and I have come across people who would find a stream of fights intended to just were you down to be quite boring.)

2. EVERYTHING (regarding rules) is an assumption as there are no official rules on it. DUH..

Here, the assumption you made is that all resources would be recovered after a short rest. While it is correct that 5e has not been released yet, I find it quite unlikely that the designers would adopt such a paradigm, except maybe for a couple of experimental classes. In addition, even in a system like 4e, which features encounter abilities quite strongly, most classes have daily abilities (and even those who do not, have daily limits on resources such as hit points). So, the idea that all resources would be recoverable after a short rest is not only an assumption, it would seem to be one that has no basis whatsoever.

3. Have you ever run a module?

Actually, I hardly ever do (except at conventions). I prefer to create my own adventures. However, if you were running a system that featured resources that could be recovered after a short rest, and you were running a module designed for such a system, it would be reasonable to expect that the designers would take such issues into account. Of course, if you were adapting a module from another system, then yes, this is one more issue that you would have to adjust yourself.

4. You are once again missing the point.... If there are essentially no "wear down" fights, the group is at somewhere near full power. To actually make ANY fight challenging, they would need to be more over the top. Some of the funniest things have happened with non-threatening fights that were just there to use up some resources.

In a way, that is correct, and is in line with the point I was making. The way to make fights more difficult is not to precede them with other fights, but to use more difficult opponents. Yes, you do trade a series of fights designed to wear down the PCs in order to achieve the occasional amusing situation when they have a hard time fighting an opponent that they would normally have no problems beating because they happen to be low on resources for a series of fights each of which carries an actual threat of defeat because the enemies are closer to the PCs in terms of power. Some would prefer the former and others would prefer the latter.

5. Who drinks a potion of cure light wounds in a boss fight? NO ONE past level 3.... No need for a potion of haste, because your mage has that back after a short rest... Why bother with any scrolls, potions or wands at all really. With a short rest, you always have the resources you need. You could also argue that it reduces the usefullness of some scrying, scouting and some things around preparation. Need a knock, wait 5 minutes. I normally just memorize all blasty spells to be 100% effective, but now i'll take a breather and get that remove disease, knock, etc.

This again touches on the assumption that the PCs will get all resources back after a short rest. If certain types of resources - healing, utility, significant enhancements or delibitations, etc. - are daily resources that can only be regained after an extended rest, there will be an incentive to keep magic items of that nature around, even if other types of resources can be regained after a short rest.

 

[concjo]

The assumption you are making is that everyone enjoys that playstyle. The fact that you have not come across any such gamers in 20+ years does not change the fact that it is still an assumption. (For the record, I've been gaming for a little over 28 years now, and I have come across people who would find a stream of fights intended to just were you down to be quite boring.)

Here, the assumption you made is that all resources would be recovered after a short rest. While it is correct that 5e has not been released yet, I find it quite unlikely that the designers would adopt such a paradigm, except maybe for a couple of experimental classes. In addition, even in a system like 4e, which features encounter abilities quite strongly, most classes have daily abilities (and even those who do not, have daily limits on resources such as hit points). So, the idea that all resources would be recoverable after a short rest is not only an assumption, it would seem to be one that has no basis whatsoever.

Actually, I hardly ever do (except at conventions). I prefer to create my own adventures. However, if you were running a system that featured resources that could be recovered after a short rest, and you were running a module designed for such a system, it would be reasonable to expect that the designers would take such issues into account. Of course, if you were adapting a module from another system, then yes, this is one more issue that you would have to adjust yourself.

In a way, that is correct, and is in line with the point I was making. The way to make fights more difficult is not to precede them with other fights, but to use more difficult opponents. Yes, you do trade a series of fights designed to wear down the PCs in order to achieve the occasional amusing situation when they have a hard time fighting an opponent that they would normally have no problems beating because they happen to be low on resources for a series of fights each of which carries an actual threat of defeat because the enemies are closer to the PCs in terms of power. Some would prefer the former and others would prefer the latter.

This again touches on the assumption that the PCs will get all resources back after a short rest. If certain types of resources - healing, utility, significant enhancements or delibitations, etc. - are daily resources that can only be regained after an extended rest, there will be an incentive to keep magic items of that nature around, even if other types of resources can be regained after a short rest.

1. Please stop saying that i'm making an assumption, it is not. As i stated previously, I'm not telling you how the game should be played. This is my preference based off of experience. There is no assumption involved.

"This assumption, I do not think it means what you think it means".

2. This IS an actual assumption based off the context of the conversation that i was originally replying to. The conversation was that 4 - 15 minute rests where you regain spells and health was the way to go, which i disagree with. This was my initial attempt to voice my opinion in reply to that.

3. I run alot of modules, either piecing old ones together or looping through many mini adventures. So, for new modules, you would be correct that they would probably account for timing. For any the old ones, not so much.

4. I don't know about you, but i get tired of trying to hit AC 25 with DR, spell resistance, etc. Some of the smaller fights that both take up some minor resources and are fun for PCs to hack through and obliterate are fun to our group. It serves a dual purpose that I would like to keep it.

5. See reply from 2

 

[Neonchameleon]

1. This is based off of my experiences with various gaming groups as a DM and player for 20+ years. So, it's not an assumption.

It is one way to play.

3. Have you ever run a module? Yes, there are deadlines that are measured in days and either can't be moved or don't make sense to move the deadline into hours/minutes.

4. You are once again missing the point.... If there are essentially no "wear down" fights, the group is at somewhere near full power. To actually make ANY fight challenging, they would need to be more over the top. Some of the funniest things have happened with non-threatening fights that were just there to use up some resources.

5. Who drinks a potion of cure light wounds in a boss fight? NO ONE past level 3....

4e PCs pushed to the wire. And not normally on their own actions. Running half way across the battlefield to pour a potion down an unconscious PC's throat (normally the leader) because the healing for the encounter has run out and it will bring them back into the fight is a standard 4e dramatic moment right the way through heroic tier.

No need for a potion of haste, because your mage has that back after a short rest... Why bother with any scrolls, potions or wands at all really. With a short rest, you always have the resources you need.

That's a different issue to having maximum personal resources. That potion of Enlarge Self for the fighter may be something no wizard you have can cast at all.