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Malhavoc copy/paste eased

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Theron

Explorer
Nope, none for me thanks. DRM is buggy as hell, poorly implemented on Acrobat 6, and a general pain in the hindquarters. There's nothing on DTRPG I want badly enough to put up with DRM, including the free PDF of Exalted.

I think that in their haste to protect their IP, WW has taken a serious hit in the consumer goodwill department this week.
 

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JRRNeiklot

First Post
Sir Whiskers said:
No offense, but I wonder how long this determination will last? I'm speaking in macro terms (not about Sigil or any other specific poster). It seems to me that the only thing DRM supporters have to do is keep pushing DRM onto more and more products. Once the availability of non-DRM material is reduced sufficiently, people will start buying DRM'd files. It's just a matter of reaching the point where buyers *have* to have something that they can't legally get elsewhere.


A lot of folks, myself included will look for other avenues. Suppose I want a copy of "The Book of Eldritch Might." Said book is already available for free on KAZAA as well as other services, UNRESTRICTED. Now, I can pay DTRPG for a copy that is restricted or download one for free that isn't. You might say, well, do the right thing. But, which is the right thing? Or maybe I should ask: what is the wrong thing? Supporting a company that violates customers rights or downloading the same product for free without ever leaving my chair? It comes down to this: Which is worse - shoplifting or supporting a company that denies me my rights. Sometimes a little thievery is not such a bad thing - and indeed, is required of concsientious people in the light of such tyranny.

I do not support piracy, indeed, I want to give my money to folks in exchange for a product. Note I said EXCHANGE. I ain't paying anyone to rent a book. There are libraries that will lend it to me for free.
 

woodelf

First Post
DSC-EricPrice said:
When my thinkpad returns off lease, or I buy a new computer, I lose access to these documents unless some kind of migration system is in place. As I understand it, no such system is in place. I might accept that my license to use the product expires after three years, but that seems to call for prices to drop dramatically. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be the model adopted by the company in question.
And prices would have to drop to zero for a three-year limit on RPG use to be acceptable to me--some of my favorite games sat on my shelf for more than 3 years before i got a chance to play them, due to the combination of finite gaming time and the typically long-duration nature of RPG play (being just 2nd in the queue could easily mean a wait of 2 years to get to the game, if you only have time for one game/week).

Pricing being a topic of interest in several of these posts, consider this. If the price of a book from a DRM based site is the same as the print version (which is something that has been alleged by a few, I havent researched it to know) then the company is already ahead the cost of the printing. Couple that with the much LARGER chunk normally eaten up by the middleman (the distributors of old) and you see that it would be possible to knock off 30-40% of the retail price of the product, still cover the technology costs of the delivery method, and still make the same profit as before. Instead, we see people apparently aiming for larger profit margins OR coddling up in an effort to prevent a backlash in the print distributor / retailer network they are still very much a part of.
I think that the presumption that PDFs and hardcopy even compete significantly is questionable. My personal experience is that most people only buy PDFs when (1) the book only exists in digital form or (2) they don't really want it, but the price is too cheap to skip. Frex, assuming i get my computer upgraded to OS X while they're still on offer, i'll snag the Gamma World D20 and Exalted PDFs, because they're free. I'm not interested in them at cover price. Gamma World i might actually prefer in PDF, because i'm not likely to play it (i've got 2 previous editions with systems i prefer, as well as a couple other post-apocalyptic RPGs), but only to snag OGC for other projects. Exalted i'd prefer in hardcopy, because i want it for leisure reading and might actually play it. But if the PDF is enough cheaper, i'll go that route. I'd rather find it at ~half price, used [hardcopy], however--and i'm certainly not going to pay more than half hardcopy price for a PDF that i'm actually planning to read--it's too much of a pain to read on screen, and printing costs money, too. One i'm only (or primarily) going to reference might be a different matter, because then the searchability and cut-n-paste of a PDF comes into play. I think that ebooks and hardcopy have different strengths and weaknesses, and only under duress would someone buy one when they really wanted the other. Moderate price savings probably aren't enough incentive--unless they don't really want the book anyway.

Frex, i'm not currently playing D20 System, can't stand D&D3E, and in general prefer much less crunchy more-narrative systems. So, even the coolest D20 System book probably is only marginally appealing to me. Yes, you can get me to buy it if you drive the price down far enough--but you'll never make a living off of selling to people like me. I'm not your market. Similarly, anybody who's really in the Exalted market has probably already bought a copy, or never will (due to financial constraints, or whatever). You're not likely to get a lot of new players by offering it for free at this point, nor are you likely to compete with sales of the hardcopy book. Moreover, i suspect you wouldn't compete with yourself all that much even if the game were relatively new: those who're really interested in the game probably want the pretty book, too--they're certainly gonna want to have the rulebook while they game, and even if they don't mind the lower production values of taking it to Kinko's, there's still that expense and hassle. It just becomes easier for most people to buy hardcopy if they really are gonna play the game. And that's at a pricepoint of free. If the PDF has a price anywhere near the hardcopy, it won't cut into hardcopy sales at all. Sure, it'll sell to people who otherwise wouldn't have bought the game, but i don't think it'll sell to people who otherwise would've bought the hardcopy. And, at that price, i don't even think it'll sell to those who own the hardcopy but would like a digital version for searching, preparing game notes, whatever.

Clark Peterson, of S&SS, has said that he got involved in this not to compete with hardcopy at all, or even to sell to those who want the product but can't afford it, but primarily (or even exclusively) to cater to those who want the product but can't get it. Overseas customers, frex, where the shipping costs could make the book prohibitively expensive. IOW, precisely those who, absent the PDF, were never gonna buy the book. I think he's right--but not just because of the near-cover-price prices of DTRPG. I think that, even at a significant savings (~35%--comparable to what you can often find for hardcopy if you shop around and have a little patience), DTRPG wouldn't be competing with brick-n-mortar stores. The markets for the products are just too different.

These aren't new issues. Every industry has considered and proposed possible solutions for the new "digital economy". Piracy in the digital age will continue to be an issue I suspect, and will continue to affect sales. That is, until such time that we as a society develop enough of a moral conscience to say "someone worked to produce this book, and I respect them for it. I will see that they are compensated, no matter how I obtained the book." Unfortunately the anonymity apparently provided by the Internet is a hard obstacle for us to overcome. I think the psychologists and socioligists among us can speak about the effects of perceived anonymity on human behavior...

What you said. We'll no more eliminate piracy with DRM than we can eliminate crime with prisons--you have to go to the source, the sociological situation that encourages/causes the behavior in the first place.
 

woodelf

First Post
sjmiller said:
As some of you may know, Steve Jackson Games is one of the biggest supporters of Intellectual Property Rights and Anti-Piracy efforts. Later this year, they are going to be opening something called e23.com, which will sell PDFs of many of their products, old and new. There was concern recently that they would use a model somewhat along the lines of DriveThruRPG.com. SJG said that not only would the site be nothing like DTRPG, but that they would be putting no restrictions on their PDFs. To paraphrase them, you bought it, you can use it how you wish. They'll even allow you to download a new copy if you lose the original file, and they'll let you know when files are updated so you can get new ones.
Sweet! I better start a "GURPS PDF" jar right now, because i can think of at least a dozen titles, just off teh top of my head, that i really want. Some are out of print. Others, for what i want them for (occasional reference), aren't worth hardcopy price--save me 30% and the shelfspace, however, and i'm all over them. Damnit! now i'm gonna be spending all my spare money on PDFs. :\
 

Felon said:
So is the bottom line really "don't do PDF if you're looking to make a profit"? I know many PDF publishers have already made the point that the profit margins are small at best.

I think all these people expecting PDF publishers to "wise up" and stop using DRM are kidding themselves. When the publishers wise up, they'll just stop wasting their time on PDF's altogether.

What I was trying to say is that if you're worried about PDF upsetting retailers, don't do it. However, if you think you can get more revenue out of putting up PDFs even with a few upset retailers lowering orders you should make your PDFs priced to sell.

Some retailer are going to be upset just seeing PDFs so if you're going to do it, make sure you do it in ways that maximizes the profit in doing so. Otherwise you just piss off both your retailers and your customers.

There's not a lot of money in PDF publishing alone. There is quite a bit of money in both print and PDF publishing. For someone like FFG, who's got great books and a solid customer base they could easily turn their PDF market into another solid and reliable income stream with little effort. Thus allowing them to make even more cool products for retailers and customers.

But pricing high and using DRM reduces this opportunity more so than worrying about pirates that are going to get the stuff anyway, because it's already available.

The market they should be addressing is the honest people who want to pay FFG to use their products legally. If FFG wants to fight piracy they should fight the piracy that's already out there. Making people who want to pay you because they don't want to be pirates suffer because you're worried they might be pirates isn't a good idea because it upsets the very people who're honest and who're trying to buy your products.

In other words, it upsets the customers.

joe b.
 
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Theron

Explorer
In my experience, I've encountered few retailers who would even be cognizant of the PDFs being out there in the first place.

- cursed with mediocre game stores TB
 

woodelf

First Post
Sir Whiskers said:
No offense, but I wonder how long this determination will last? I'm speaking in macro terms (not about Sigil or any other specific poster). It seems to me that the only thing DRM supporters have to do is keep pushing DRM onto more and more products. Once the availability of non-DRM material is reduced sufficiently, people will start buying DRM'd files. It's just a matter of reaching the point where buyers *have* to have something that they can't legally get elsewhere.

True dat. Frex, i despise web-based BBSes. But here i am. Too much of the discussion i wanted to participate in was going on on RPGNet, and then EnWorld and The Forge. So, 'cept for bitching now and then about the horrible interface, i just grumble to myself and put up with it. So, i'll say that i'm not planning on giving DTRPG any of my money, but i might just break down if something really cool shows up there. We'll have to see. I certainly will be pissed off if that's the only way to get something a want, however.

Since a lot of very smart people are working on this exact problem (how to protect both the seller's and the buyer's rights concerning copyrights), I'm hopeful that a better solution will be found before DRM becomes ubiquitous. Because, sure as anything, if it does become widespread, most of us *will* put up with it, holding our noses as we do so.

I hope you're right. While a lot of smart people are working on both sides of teh equation, i get the impression that those with the money and the gov't influence are all on one side.
 

Emiricol

Registered User
Not enough. Still not buying. When the DRM is gone, I'll consider giving these folks my money. Until then, they don't have anything I can't live without.
 

Kesh

First Post
Glad to hear Monte changed this. I'm still a little concerned, since I bought several products on RPGnow, and I'm not sure how that'll work when updates come out (such as the 3.5 updates).

Still, I'm fairly happy with what I've seen. I'm going to continue buying PDFs through DriveThruRPG.
 

Voadam

Legend
Psion said:
At the same time, Steve Jackson Games has good reason to be on the forefront of civil rights concerns, having had a history of having their intellectual property seized.

And their physical property seized by the federal government.
 

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