Man, I miss the days of good, solid, utilitarian Prestige Classes

[Felon]

I've been compiling a list of available prestige classes for my FR campaign, and I'm pretty sure that the the only book I've referred to from this year is Heroes of Battle. Before that, I think it woudl go all the way back to Libris Mortis. We've had the various race books, the environments books, and setting books for Forgotten Realms and Eberron, and I don't like the track they're heading down.

Seems like all the prestige classes coming out in books these days are, conceptually, extremely narrow and inextricably tied to some specific organization. That makes them significantly less useful to a party of adventurers who are, in effect, an organization unto themselves. Are there any parties out there where one guy's a Hathran witch, one guy's a purple dragon knight, another guy's a harper agent, and maybe somebody else is a grey hand of Waterdeep?

The annoying part is, they're not terribly adaptable. Their class abilities often consist of organization-specific perks and privileges and little membership tokens rather than actual abilities. Seems to me, this is a lousy approach; even if all my players were in the Moonstars, I wouldn't want them to feel like every single person needs bard levels so that they can then in turn take Moonstar Agent levels just so that they can consider themselves "real" members and not just affiliates. Especially since once they take the class, they find that what they get isn't anything unique or special, just boring little bonuses that make for a wholly unnecesarry PrC.

To me, a PrC is not just a fancy title or a club membership. I long to see the return of utilitarian prestige classes that offer some interesting game mechanics, and fill in broad concepts that players tend to seek out. I can adapt them to fit my campaign's "fluff" as I see fit.

For instance, I adapted the Nightsong Enforcer and Infiltrator from the Complete Adventurer to be the elite agents of the mercenary company my party works for. I also wanted a 5-level class to round out characters (rather than define them) so I adapted the Dread Commando from Heroes of Battle. And since mages and healer shouldn't feel left out, I adapted the Tactical Healer and War Weaver from HoB as well (I figured I didn't want players having to leaf through more than a couple of books).

I know there are folks who think there are already enough prestige classes to go around and are sick of seeing new ones (which to me is like saying there's enough music to go around, or I'm sick of going into Blockbuster and seeing one movie after another--enough already with the new movies!). I'm also aware a lot of folks have applauded WotC's current fluff-centric approach to PrC's. Is there anyone else who actually likes prestige classes, and misses the days of PrC's that didn't think the "prestige" part had to come at the expense of there being an actual "class"?

 

[Crothian]

YA, the fluff has gone overboard...well, not the fluff..the bad fluff. I want a class I can work with not one that I have to work against.

 

[The Shaman]

Anyone else hear the *WHOOSH!* of a huge pendulum swinging?

 

[Crothian]

Anyone else hear the *WHOOSH!* of a huge pendulum swinging?

not really, it never swung that far to the fluff side. Wizrds got a little more fluffy but not much of the other companies really did.

 

[wingsandsword]

Well, since people keep wanting new prestige classes, they're going to keep making them. They filled up on basic, utilitarian PrC's that were widely adaptable and did things you couldn't do with core classes quite a while back. However, organization related classes can be nearly unlimited, since every new little organization, order, guild can have it's own class which is almost identical to a core class, except this one has a different name.

Now, organization-specific classes have their role, if it's a major organization that influences the entire setting or campaign, and they have powers or abilities beyond that of normal characters, and as a way for a GM to "legitimately" give a villain a pile of special powers.

Should a local thieves guild or minor order of knighthood with only a few dozen (at most) members have it's own PrC, especially when they gain really nothing distinct from a rogue or fighter? Probably not.

Personally, I love the variety of PrC's, the options they provide, but the poor design they have sometimes hamstrings the concept.

 

[Pants]

Is there anyone else who actually likes prestige classes, and misses the days of PrC's that didn't think the "prestige" part had to come at the expense of there being an actual "class"?

Hm well, it seems that the current design standard of PrC's from WotC is either really good or really, really bad.

On one hand, if I like a PrC a lot, then it has all this extra good information available for it. On the other hand, if I don't like a PrC, it has a bunch of wasted pages of info that, in the older way, could've been devoted to other stuff I may actually use. As it is, I think WotC devotes a little too much space to individual PrC's. I like a lot of the extra flavor, but I think some of it could be cut without affecting the quality of the class and the flavor behind it.

Although, lately there have been far less PrC's that really interest me. I don't know why that is though...

 

[Graf]

Not to be unsupportive but I would say "no" I think the niche PrCs are better constructed and cleaner. The DM can always "unbalance" a class, or drop restrictions but I appreciate that WotC (et all if others have started to go that route too) are focusing more on balance and story over new mechanics. Likewise it is easy to "file the serial numbers off" of any of the PrCs to make a generic one.

As a DM I would be happier to hand wave minor details (letting a PC give up a feat they took earlier in their career for one they need to get into a PrC) than have some potential for game wrecking.
(I also thought that Lords of Magic, the Complete Books, etc. provided a lot of good new mechanics for PrCs and characters in general)

I can see why some PCs would feel that the fluff prestige classes are a bit unfortunate. They have great role-playing potential but very high barriers for entry and little mechanical pay off. It that -has- been an Eberron issue. (With Spellscribed and Reborn Warforged as an excellent examples)
On the other hand, while a PC would probably never bother to make a Sharn Skymage it fits in nicely with the world and the city is large enough to support its own classes with those abilities.

The new prestige classes are a nice, easy, way to make an “appropriately memorable” NPC.
Especially since they -do- work fine as paragons with certain organizations or of certain ideologies (that players can use as a reference point in identifying where their characters stand on a given spectrum).

And the new "adaptation" section of the PrC write up is brilliant!
The suggested changes are usually substantial and interesting.
[Edit=Clarity issues]

 

[Felon]

They filled up on basic, utilitarian PrC's that were widely adaptable and did things you couldn't do with core classes quite a while back.

Filled-up? No way. There are so many different ways to approach a broad concept...heck, just wander over to the "house rules" section and you'll find plenty of unofficial prestige classes that a DM put together to fill a hole that the official books weren't filling.

 

[Felon]

And the new "adaptation" section of the PrC write up is brilliant!
The suggested changes are usually substantial and interesting.
[Edit=Clarity issues]

I liked that addition as well. It came in particularly handy with the nightsong PrC's, and I'd like to see more "template" organization classes like that. There really is no nightsong guild per se, it's just a schill for the class.

 

[Graf]

Filled-up? No way. There are so many different ways to approach a broad concept...heck, just wander over to the "house rules" section and you'll find plenty of unofficial prestige classes that a DM put together to fill a hole that the official books weren't filling.

The size of holes look different to different people. Example: Somebody just posted a spellthief varient. Skimming it you see a lot of mechanics that just don't show up in WotC published DnD.
(i.e. the character is forced to spend skill points on a new Spelltheif only skill called "bladecraft").

This is certainly being written by someone who wants to have a very specific mechanic and they are "fill[ing] a hole that the official books weren't filling".
WotC DnD books generally use a very limited palette of rules and are focused on making new story options instead of "new mechanics for archetypes already covered with existing roles".
I don't think that people writing and re-writing character classes in the house rules forum really reflects some kind fundamental vacuum.

Which is -not- to say that there is no room for creativity.