Man, I miss the days of good, solid, utilitarian Prestige Classes

[Thanee]

I'm not exactly seeing this as an epidemic. Either in proportion or impact.

Well, I can't really say how widespread this is, but I notice this trend quite a bit.

And I don't even mean that as opposed to single-classed PCs.

I think, that the name 'Prestige Class' already implies, that being a member of any of those means, that you are something 'better', so it seems like a natural step to get there eventually.

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hand of Evil]

Why not design a PrC around the party, taking the elements from your list of PrCs. I see this as a natural progression as a party advances, hirings, henchmen, etc., join the party and then take on the PrC that being in the party brings. You can modify this by grouping the PrCs, this is Party Fighter class, this is Party Wizard Class, this is Party Cleric.

Just a thought...

 

[Henry]

For instance, if someone's looking for a PrC with an archery theme, how many options are really out there?

Arcane Archer and OOtB as you note, plus Deepwoods Sniper, Peerless Archer, & Darkwood Stalker, not to mention the Scout Class as the "skirmish archer". Among other d20 companies, there are probably half a dozen more. For instance, The Scout from Black Company Campaign setting is a take on the skirmish archer, but actually is more of a sniper than a combatant. I don't know of too many rapid-fire expert prestige classes, but manyshot alone gives some important progress towards that.

I'm just one who prefers the 3E original designers' intent behind prestige classes -- that of a way to tie PCs more to a specific world than to be a generic concept class. Admittedly, narrowing of focus is part and parcel of PrC's, but it's meant for them to be customized to a world, rather than another bundle of abilities. There are thousands of PrC's between WotC and others (and the third-party folks sometimes even do them BETTER than WotC), and I'd be hard pressed to find a concept not covered by at least one or two.

 

[Belen]

For instance, if someone's looking for a PrC with an archery theme, how many options are really out there? You've got the elf-only Arcane Archer, the Order of the Bow Initiate, and then what? You maybe have to go back to the Deepwood Sniper in Masters of the Wild. The OotBI is an OK class in and of itself but it hardly covers every archer concept out there; there are long-range sneak-attack sniipers, there are rapid-fire experts, there are close-combat skirmish archers, there are trick-shot experts. Lots of different ways to fill up 5-to-10 levels with the idea of building an archer extraordinaire.

Dude, they have archer feats for this. You do not need to take a class. Just play a fighter and take the feats needed to become an uber-archer. If you see an area that needs tweaking, then create a feat for it.

PrC were designed for GMs, not players. They do not appear in the PHB. They appeared first in the DMG. They were a way for a GM to make a really unique NPC. Unfortunately, the concept was corrupted and players everywhere whined about needing a PrC when they could have done the same thing by either taking the required feats or multi-classing.

Enough options already exist in the game and a player does not need a PrC to be an archer etc.

 

[icedrake]

Dude, they have archer feats for this. You do not need to take a class. Just play a fighter and take the feats needed to become an uber-archer. If you see an area that needs tweaking, then create a feat for it.

PrC were designed for GMs, not players. They do not appear in the PHB. They appeared first in the DMG. They were a way for a GM to make a really unique NPC. Unfortunately, the concept was corrupted and players everywhere whined about needing a PrC when they could have done the same thing by either taking the required feats or multi-classing.

Enough options already exist in the game and a player does not need a PrC to be an archer etc.

I cannot agree with your statement, that PrCs were meant only as a DM tool for creating NPCs. Yes they may have appeared first in the DMG, but they are not required to play a game. They are options that DMs can choose to have in their game to expand character options as players level. If any thing, PrCs came around because the 3e designers knew many people would miss the vast number of kit options that ADnD 2e.

I see PrCs are optional, but frequently employed rules by many DMs, for PCs and NPCs alike. I would never, ever play a multiclassed spellcaster/martial class without the option for taking a PrC.

Edit: I wanted to add though, that some abilities can be covered with feats, but not all. One reason I prefer WotC published material to house ruled or generated is because its been playtested or balanced and home brewed stuff can be harder to nerf without going overboard. IE I do not want to try coming up with a bunch of new archer feats when I could just create a 5 lvl class.

 

[KB9JMQ]

I don't know if I miss them or not.
In the group I DM, I havent had anyone even ask about a prestige class yet.
Matter of fact I've not had anyone even multiclass yet.
Maybe it is just my group but it hasnt happened.
The group I play in has never done PrCl or multiclass except for me.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Why not design a PrC around the party, taking the elements from your list of PrCs. I see this as a natural progression as a party advances, hirings, henchmen, etc., join the party and then take on the PrC that being in the party brings. You can modify this by grouping the PrCs, this is Party Fighter class, this is Party Wizard Class, this is Party Cleric.

Just a thought...

I agree. Give it near-full spell progression and a selection of appropriate-to-their-adventures skills and a decent combat progression.

 

[Felon]

If you have special wishes, just exchange a feat or an ability from an existing class *shrug*. I really don't see that many original concepts untouched.

I don't want to offer more feats to my players. They have enough feats. I want to offer a career path, with original abilities that improve with level and are sufficiently appealing that a player will pursue it to the exclusion of other options. And then they personalize it with their alloted feats.

Yes, a lot of the broad concepts have had stabs taken at them. And in a lot of cases there's room for other approach. Not everyone's vision of a spiked-chain-wielding specialist is the the chain-swininging, pseudo-kyton boogeyman from Sword & Fist.

Not really. Between Mongoose's Ultimate Prestige Class collections (1 for 3.0 and 2 for 3.5), in addition to hordes of other PrCs, there have got to be over one thousand non-official PrCs. I don't see the huge need to focus on generic PrCs anymore. Especially since there aren't that many niches left to fill if you start counting alternative core classes.

I can see where someone would think that if they had an extensive collection of unofficial classes. Personally, I tend to find the unofficial classes to be pretty poorly-designed on the whole. Mongoose's in particular; when I see a class that gets the ability to take 20 on a skill check I know something's very wrong.

Why do the players take prestige classes? Is it because they are looking for something to add to their PC's story, background, motivation, etc? Or is it because they see the PrCls nifty abilities and want a power boost? Or does the PrCl open up some new strategic option?

A combination of all of the above, I suppose.

For power and option I am rather demanding that the game provides them to the base classes, without the need for a PrCl. Feats are much more simple and clean to use: if you just want to be a better archer with a specific trick, you should be able to get it as a feat provided you meet some prerequisites. The original mistake the designers made with feats was to give too few of them. If you build a PrCl around that ability you're complicating the matter a lot. Now you have a whole class, which requires you to balance it about other features (BAB, HD, skills, spellcasting levels...) which have nothing to do with your archer special ability.

I want to complicate matters a lot. Maybe that archer PrC has abilities so good that they merit not merely the acquisition of that new ability, but the sacrifice of some other assets. Maybe it's very strong in terms of offense, but comes at the expense of a lower hit dice. Or conversely, maybe the archer PrC is geared towards a ranger, and I don't want to see the concept involve taking a bunch of fighter levels and consequently taking a hit on skill points. Maybe an archer should have a good Reflex save instead of Fort.

At least if the PrCl shows a clear progression of the features (and not a mere collection of them) then it makes more sense to make it a class. But in general I wish the gaming options weren't so much tied to prestige classes at all. I am quite sure that it would be possible and even easy to break down all prestige classes into feats.

See above for why I don't completely agree. Feats are add-ons, extras, enhancements. A class is a path with give-and-take, and it has other things associated with it other than special abilities, as yourself pointed out. When a characters takes a level of havoc mage, he's actively sacrificing a level of advancement to get the ability to battlecast, as well as a better hit die and good Fort save. It makes him much more unique and balanced than just staying a wizard and expending a feat.

 

[Sammael]

One reason I prefer WotC published material to house ruled or generated is because its been playtested or balanced and home brewed stuff can be harder to nerf without going overboard.

I am 99% certain that none of the recent WotC material has been playtested with any degree of completeness.

 

[Shade]

I'm with you, Felon.

My group still uses the weapon master, deepwood sniper, and other generic PrCs far more often than most of the newer, niche classes. I definitely see a need for, and like, the occasional niche class, but if the class would have worked as generic in the first place, I'd rather it have been generic, and then said "in the Realms, they are called Chondathan weapon masters", etc.

The thing that bothers me most, though, is that if I used to dislike a prestige class, I had about a page of useless material in my books. Now, it's at least three pages, thanks to all the unneccessary sample characters and "how to play" suggestions. :\