Mana, Shamans, and the Cultural Misappropriation behind Fantasy Terms

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In one of the other 'threads that shall not be named', I asked people how they thought the changes going on with WotC would affect other aspects of the game. I'd mentioned religion and the words like druid and shaman and how religion is portrayed and the potential of offense in that regard.

I was told to stop making exaggerated comments and focusing on 'what ifs'.

And here we are. Funny, huh?
 

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Olrox17

Hero
In one of the other 'threads that shall not be named', I asked people how they thought the changes going on with WotC would affect other aspects of the game. I'd mentioned religion and the words like druid and shaman and how religion is portrayed and the potential of offense in that regard.

I was told to stop making exaggerated comments and focusing on 'what ifs'.

And here we are. Funny, huh?
People often ignore (or disagree with) the fact that not all slippery slope arguments are fallacious by default.
 

One thing worth bringing up here is the moral value of civilisation, whether it is positive or neutral. OD&D had a very much Morcock take with law and civilization inexorably clashing with chaos and the wild and it's up to the people caught in the middle to survive the clash.

There is also the Conan approach, where civilization is viewed with a degree of suspicion. One of the themes that keeps coming up is Conan's distrust of cities for examples (despite his attraction to them for the purposes of adventure). Which could be viewed both as wild versus civilized and city versus rural. I've certainly run games with that kind of feel in mind.
 

One thing worth bringing up here is the moral value of civilisation, whether it is positive or neutral. OD&D had a very much Morcock take with law and civilization inexorably clashing with chaos and the wild and it's up to the people caught in the middle to survive the clash. 4e had Erathis, the explicitly neutral Goddess of Civilisation, in its pantheon (and from memory explicitly worrying some of the other Gods with her experiments) making it clear that civilization was in and of itself neutral rather than good. But most other editions seem to have civilisation as being a positive force which makes uncivilised inherently negative.

I think another thing that is interesting about this is people often don't appreciate how different D&D fantasy in general is today than it was early on. By 3rd edition or so, the fantasy aesthetic had really moved away from stuff that I found interesting. I think there has been more of a mainstream fantasy influence, alongside video game fantasy influence over the years. But I think a lot of the fantasy we see in D&D today is descended from that fantasy homogenization we saw in the 80s with fantasy novels. While core 2e fantasy was quite vanilla, I think the thing that still made it appealing for me was you had all these different kinds of worlds, as well as historical campaign books.
 

If it is your neighbors, and the report it stolen, and you’re caught with it, you’ve stolen their bike.

Buddy do we really want to have the discussion where we point out that this may be true in the US under various state laws, but in the UK, and in much of the world, this absolutely would not be true and that the real problem here is that the US legal system is hopelessly legalistic (in the bad sense) and obsessed with the letter of the law rather than intent or justice?

Because why muck things up with such a culturally specific example?
 

But I think a lot of the fantasy we see in D&D today is descended from that fantasy homogenization we saw in the 80s with fantasy novels.

I feel like a claim like this needs some serious cites, because this is a subject I'm familiar with, and I'm not really seeing it. I'd argue that what you're talking about has little to do with that (there's not much fantasy more homogenized than Dragonlance - it might as well be semi-skimmed milk, and that was 1E era), and an awful lot to do with 3E effectively "inbreeding" D&D, by ignoring most of the cooler stuff that happened in 2E, and trying to "take D&D back to its roots", so instead of mixing D&D and contemporary fantasy or the like, it tried to mix D&D with more D&D and then threw in some D&D for spice. Then chopped up some D&D and put it on top as a garnish.

So 3E is this totally generically D&D-flavoured mess, rather than being influenced by, say, I dunno, Shannara, which you seem to be implying (indeed the only direct 3E literary ref I can immediately recall of is to totally non-homogeneous Book of the New Sun series). 4E moved away from generic D&D a bit by trying to take a bit more of an attitude (which gave us the Feywild and er Garth Marenghi's Darkplace or whatever the other one is called, among other things), but then 5E's momma got scared and sent it to leave with it's aunt and uncle in, errr, Wisconsin and they were D&D through and through, and no-nonsense types who weren't going to tolerate any bad influences like contemporary fantasy. I guess Magic the Gathering is Carlton in this scenario? If the shoe fits...
 

I don’t know whether what I said was the case, I was just speculating based on what I remember seeing over time. But whatever the actual cause I just know that it was sometime during 3rd edition that I realized the style of fantasy WOTC was interested in, just wasn’t my cup of tea (and that earlier iterations of D&D had a whole other approach to fantasy that people today might find interesting if they are not aware of it).
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
Thinking about system and gameplay, in my view one of the problems D&D faces is ambiguity over the relationship between clerics, druids and MUs.

The default world of 1e is much more humanocentric than 5e. But the creatures the PCs interact with in 1e are not representative. They’ll mostly encounter monsters, including the evil tribal humanoids with their inferior shamans/witch doctors. In the wider, mostly human, world there are MM nomads and tribespeople, druids and later on the Unearthed Arcana barbarian. They’re not quite as subpar as the tribal humanoids – the leader of a band of nomads can be a 10th level fighter, an encounter with tribesmen can include an 8th level cleric – but they are still subpar compared to the urban/cosmopolitan sphere.

You’re right that the cleric is weird because it’s become a synthesis of elements from Christianity and an imagined polytheism.

The magic-user/wizard wields natural magic, in the sense of control over the impersonal occult properties of the natural world. ("Natural" is here used in a much broader sense than D&D uses it to include magical forces.) Though the 4e witch subclass, which I didn’t know about, seems to be an exception to this. The MU/wizard is like a medieval scientist. Jack Vance’s The Dying Earth suggests that magic is now largely performed by rote, the underlying theory having been lost:

"In ages gone... a thousand spells were known to sorcery and the wizards effected their wills. Today, as Earth dies, a hundred spells remain to man's knowledge, and these have come to us through the ancient books"
"I am dissatisfied with the mindless accomplishments of the magicians, who have all their lore by rote."

But the 1e MU isn’t Vancian in this respect. Spell research (DMG pg 115) assumes both a library and a laboratory which implies not merely recovery of lost information but experimentation to discover new knowledge. MU training costs (DMG pg 86) include "equipment, books, experiments, etc."

This passage from James Frazer’s The Golden Bough could almost be describing the magic of the D&D MU/wizard (except that their faith is probably explicit):

Thus its fundamental conception is identical with that of modern science; underlying the whole system is a faith, implicit but real and firm, in the order and uniformity of nature. The magician does not doubt that the same causes will always produce the same effects, that the performance of the proper ceremony, accompanied by the appropriate spell, will inevitably be attended by the desired result, unless, indeed, his incantations should chance to be thwarted and foiled by the more potent charms of another sorcerer. He supplicates no higher power: he sues the favour of no fickle and wayward being: he abases himself before no awful deity.​
Unlike the Frazer-ian magician, the D&D wizard's magic works and their understanding of theory is correct.

I agree that in terms of what the MU/wizard actually does there’s quite a bit of overlap with the druid. D&D has a lot of class overlap problems because of the way it was built up by accretion, drawing on many different sources along the way. This wasn’t an issue in 1974 OD&D because there were only three classes – fighting man, magic-user, cleric.

the "witch"/pagan role in the gameworld which, in part, is a way of looking at the rural aspects of religion and spirituality through the urban/cosmopolitan lens.

The Satanic witch is imo the rural service magician viewed through the early modern urban/cosmopolitan lens, while the current neo-pagan witch is the rural service magician viewed thru the modern urban/cosmopolitan lens.

The 5e warlock class represents the former. It’s a bit weird having a class that represents a group as viewed from the perspective of its enemies, albeit altered to be no longer evil. The OD&D Chaotic (evil) cleric – a sort of Satanist, anti-Christian, or Conan-esque Evil High Priest – is in one way less weird, because it was written by those enemies, but in another it's weirder because they're allowing it as a PC.

In a fantastic magical world like that of D&D there’s no reason for the rural to be inferior to the urban/cosmopolitan. Everyone could have access to equally potent magic and other powers. But there’s been a persistent association of “tribe”, “primitive”, low intelligence, evil alignment, superstition, idolatry, and inferior magic. This has gotten worse in 5e compared with 3e and 4e.

Strangely two of the most important sources for D&D – Conan and Tolkien (The Hobbit/LotR) – don’t present the rural world as inferior to the urban/cosmopolitan. Howard considers it superior. Tolkien is a bit more equivocal – Gondor is a positive example of the urban/cosmopolitan – but I think he’s opposed to modernity, particularly industrialisation. The Two Towers: "Saruman… set some of his precious machinery to work… up came fires and foul fumes: the vents and shafts all over the plain began to spout and belch. Several of the Ents got scorched and blistered. One of them… got caught in a spray of some liquid fire and burned like a torch: a horrible sight." Letter #75:

There is the tragedy and despair of all machinery laid bare... it attempts to actualize desire, and so to create power in this World; and that cannot really be done with any real satisfaction. Labour-saving machinery only creates endless and worse labour. And in addition to this fundamental disability of a creature, is added the Fall, which makes our devices not only fail of their desire but turn to new and horrible evil. So we come inevitably from Daedalus and Icarus to the Giant Bomber. It is not an advance in wisdom!​

Tolkien seems to be set against all human power, no matter its source. Industrialisation is a bad thing because it has produced the greatest amount of power in human hands. He wouldn’t like the high level D&D MU/wizard!
 
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Buddy do we really want to have the discussion where we point out that this may be true in the US under various state laws, but in the UK, and in much of the world, this absolutely would not be true and that the real problem here is that the US legal system is hopelessly legalistic (in the bad sense) and obsessed with the letter of the law rather than intent or justice?

I am pretty sure they are fond of their legal traditions, that's why Iet it drop (though it was fun, as a public prosecutor, to have people explain me what constitute theft... I specifically mentionned that it might be the case in their juridiction but it was not enough obviously). However, I feel it might explain some of the disconnect in this thread...

Because why muck things up with such a culturally specific example?

I feel that some people consider that acts can be judged with no consideration for intent or contex, and therefore ascribe the same level of guilt to someone who takes a word from a culture, butcher its meaning and use it as a way to demean said culture, and people who just takes that word, disconnected from its root, and use it without ill intent, even aknowledging its polysemy in some case. If one considers that "stealing the word mana and using it to describe anything that isn't how the original users of the word did" is wrong, it doesn't matter if you're doing it with ill-intent (to simplify or insult said culture), with no ill intent but just misunderstanding the word in the first place, or with no ill intent and disconnecting it completely from its original meaning.

I am seeing different behaviour, not all morally equal, between these examples:
a) using ayatollah as a derogatory term from an intransigent authority with no link to great knowledge of Islam
b) using czar as a term for an authority who have the last word on a policy
c) using mana to say that polynesian belief was something it is not
d) using mana to mean "magic bar" without linking it to any original meaning
e) using hamburger to designate something that doesn't come from Hamburg
f) using PJs to designate a night clothing and not the Indian original meaning of pyjama.

But maybe people coming from a "legalistic" culture, to borrow your term, will consider some (all?) of these behaviours to be equal as they all can be reduced to "taking a word from another language and assign it another meaning" if you don't consider the intent of the speaker.I may be reading too much into that but I feel debaters in this thread have a hard time even understanding each other's position.
 

I am pretty sure they are fond of their legal traditions, that's why Iet it drop (though it was fun, as a public prosecutor, to have people explain me what constitute theft... I specifically mentionned that it might be the case in their juridiction but it was not enough obviously). However, I feel it might explain some of the disconnect in this thread...



I feel that some people consider that acts can be judged with no consideration for intent or contex, and therefore ascribe the same level of guilt to someone who takes a word from a culture, butcher its meaning and use it as a way to demean said culture, and people who just takes that word, disconnected from its root, and use it without ill intent, even aknowledging its polysemy in some case. If one considers that "stealing the word mana and using it to describe anything that isn't how the original users of the word did" is wrong, it doesn't matter if you're doing it with ill-intent (to simplify or insult said culture), with no ill intent but just misunderstanding the word in the first place, or with no ill intent and disconnecting it completely from its original meaning.

I am seeing different behaviour, not all morally equal, between these examples:
a) using ayatollah as a derogatory term from an intransigent authority with no link to great knowledge of Islam
b) using czar as a term for an authority who have the last word on a policy
c) using mana to say that polynesian belief was something it is not
d) using mana to mean "magic bar" without linking it to any original meaning
e) using hamburger to designate something that doesn't come from Hamburg
f) using PJs to designate a night clothing and not the Indian original meaning of pyjama.

But maybe people coming from a "legalistic" culture, to borrow your term, will consider some (all?) of these behaviours to be equal as they all can be reduced to "taking a word from another language and assign it another meaning" if you don't consider the intent of the speaker.I may be reading too much into that but I feel debaters in this thread have a hard time even understanding each other's position.

Interesting. I do think though that all the stuff Aldarc has linked/quote showed a far more nuanced opinion than a legalistic one devoid of context and intent, and asked people to think about the usage, rather than suggesting they were "offenders" for using (indeed the last quote was very positive about it).

But it does explain to some extent, some of the very defensive reactions from people to certain things - things which aren't accusations, in that they're not intended to carry moral judgment or the like, merely to inform, but which people take as pretty serious allegations. And generally I note there are a lot of people who get disproportionately upset (just in the world generally) when cultural appropriation is discussed, which is a neutral term describing an act with no inherent moral characteristics (hence appropriation, rather than a weighted word like theft), which is a natural part of humanity, but can become problematic when it takes on certain forms (particularly a powerful culture taking a lot from a weak one, especially if they weaken the value of the "IP" as it were, or misinterpret, misunderstand, or cheaply use sacred stuff).

Oddly with mana I feel like it's a slightly passe term. It's still used a lot, but much less in TT RPGs than CRPGs/MMOs.
 

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