Level Up (A5E) Maneuvers and Extra Attacks

[TheHand]

So I'm probably about 2 years too late on with this question, but I'll go ahead and ask anyway...

In our game, we've noticed that some maneuvers are worded as: "You take the Attack action and make a melee weapon attack, as well as any additional attacks granted by Extra Attack" and others just have "Make a melee weapon attack". I'm curious about the design philosophy there, as it seems like the ones that cost an Action and only grant 1 attack essentially become 'weaker' choices to any class that gets Extra Attacks. I understand there was some game balance concerns, but a maneuver like "Raking Strikes" which costs 2 exertion and gives you a chance to make a second attack at Disadvantage would essentially be obsolete after Extra Attacks (maybe useful to rogues?).

Also, has anyone house ruled it to just allow "Extra Attacks" with all Maneuvers that cost an Action, and how unbalanced have you found it?

 

[Stalker0]

a maneuver like "Raking Strikes" which costs 2 exertion and gives you a chance to make a second attack at Disadvantage would essentially be obsolete after Extra Attacks (maybe useful to rogues?).

Raking Strikes is the "sleep" of maneuvers. Its got a decent benefit at low levels (though for 2 exertion its questionable), but then doesn't' scale well at higher levels. Its really meant to be swapped out when you level up (remember that each level you can swap out a maneuver for something else.

Now in terms of the main question, its a balancing scenario for the maneuver. Some maneuvers are strong enough where that single attack is worth the price of admission. Others are more augments that are magnified by the number of attacks you get.

Now I do think the maneuver balance isn't the greatest, and I'm sure if you pointed out a few specific maneuvers that were only 1 attack, I would agree that some of them could be made for all attacks and still be balanced. But as a blanket statement, that's probably too much.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Its really meant to be swapped out when you level up (remember that each level you can swap out a maneuver for something else.

no, you can swap out a maneuver when you get a new maneuver, for another maneuver of the same degree. you can't even go lower. it's weird.

 

[TheHand]

Now I do think the maneuver balance isn't the greatest, and I'm sure if you pointed out a few specific maneuvers that were only 1 attack, I would agree that some of them could be made for all attacks and still be balanced. But as a blanket statement, that's probably too much.

Thanks for your reply. I think the underbalanced maneuvers tend to jump out at me more, making me wonder if I've missed something.

And yeah, if you could juts swap them out for higher degree maneuvers later, that also would mitigate some of the issue, but you're stuck with swapping them out for maneuvers of the same degree.

 

[arms]

Thanks for your reply. I think the underbalanced maneuvers tend to jump out at me more, making me wonder if I've missed something.

And yeah, if you could juts swap them out for higher degree maneuvers later, that also would mitigate some of the issue, but you're stuck with swapping them out for maneuvers of the same degree.

I believe you can use the downtime activity "relearning" (AG432) to change out maneuvers more easily

 

[Selganor]

But you still can't swap maneuvers "up" since you can only exchange them for a maneuver of the same degree.

 

[Selganor]

Quick checklist for rogue (as that might be the next martial I could be playing):

Level	Maneuver 1st Degree	2nd Degree	3rd Degree	4th Degree
1	-	-	-	-
2-3	2
4-6	3
7-9	3	1
10-12	3	2
13-15	3	2	1
16-18	3	2	2
19-20	3	2	2	1

You can decide to not get a higher Degree Maneuver and get a lower Degree but then you would have to use the Train Downtime (AG 432) to get this Degree back up again.
At any time you get a new Maneuver (i.e. 4th, 7th, 10th, 13th, 16th, 19th) you can decide to exchange one of your Maneuvers for one of the same Degree.

 

[evildmguy]

We ran into this last night. I do agree that the wording isn't clear or it's confusing if it replaces one attack or is the action.

In any case, I decided to make it more useful and say that it gives an Extra attack, after all other attacks on the action, at disadvantage. My group is tactical, although last night the players were all tired and so not then, so they liked to have the fighter use that when he had advantage, to get the final extra attack straight up. I'm more than willing, though, to bend, or break, the rules toward my players and fun.

I made this change because it seems to me that the 5E/LU philosophy is that things are useful at all levels, no matter when gained.

 

[evildmguy]

Raking Strikes is the "sleep" of maneuvers. Its got a decent benefit at low levels (though for 2 exertion its questionable), but then doesn't' scale well at higher levels. Its really meant to be swapped out when you level up (remember that each level you can swap out a maneuver for something else.

Hmm. Okay, now I'm not so sure. Reading Rapid Strike, that says that as an Attack Action, you make your attacks and then for 2 exertion points, get to use your bonus action as an extra attack and if that hits, you can use your reaction to attack again for 2 more exertion points.

Raking Strikes, though, says "make a melee weapon attack." It doesn't specify that it is an Action. In theory, then, an 11th level fighter could use Rapid Strike and after each attack, use Raking Strikes to get an extra attack, at disadvantage. I would say that only the attack from Raking Strikes itself cannot be used to activate it.

However, at 2 exertion points per extra attack, I assume that's going to be all of their exertion points to gain three extra attacks, 2 for Rapid Strike then 2 for a Raking Strikes extra attack after each attack and Extra Attack.

If I'm reading Raking Strikes correct, then maybe 2 exertion points is correct. It could be an exertion point cost equal to the number of extra attacks taken but for three extra attacks, that's six points again. Sure, that cost helps at only one extra attack for 3 exertion points.

Unless they specialize in those two maneuvers, making the cost 1 exertion cost per strike. That would mean the 11th level fighter could do that twice in one combat and have two rounds of six attacks, half at disadvantage.

 

[Stalker0]

Hmm. Okay, now I'm not so sure. Reading Rapid Strike, that says that as an Attack Action, you make your attacks and then for 2 exertion points, get to use your bonus action as an extra attack and if that hits, you can use your reaction to attack again for 2 more exertion points.

Raking Strikes, though, says "make a melee weapon attack." It doesn't specify that it is an Action. In theory, then, an 11th level fighter could use Rapid Strike and after each attack, use Raking Strikes to get an extra attack, at disadvantage. I would say that only the attack from Raking Strikes itself cannot be used to activate it.

However, at 2 exertion points per extra attack, I assume that's going to be all of their exertion points to gain three extra attacks, 2 for Rapid Strike then 2 for a Raking Strikes extra attack after each attack and Extra Attack.

If I'm reading Raking Strikes correct, then maybe 2 exertion points is correct. It could be an exertion point cost equal to the number of extra attacks taken but for three extra attacks, that's six points again. Sure, that cost helps at only one extra attack for 3 exertion points.

Unless they specialize in those two maneuvers, making the cost 1 exertion cost per strike. That would mean the 11th level fighter could do that twice in one combat and have two rounds of six attacks, half at disadvantage.

So the thing to remember, the Raking Strikes manuever is an action. Not an attack action, just an action. So your action is gone....spent.

All we get is exactly what the maneuver gives us, which is an attack...+1 attack at disadvantage if the first one hits. No more no less.

Rapid strike lets you then get a use of the attack action (which then generates your normal number of attacks), but it doesn't give you an extra regular action you can use to take a manuever, its just the attack action. To do similar to what your describing you need Perfect Assault, which very specifically allows you to replace attacks with manuevers.