Manual of the Planes Revealed Over on RPG.net

[Hussar]

I love Planescape, but this time i´ll be smart and avoid the flamewars by the "keepers of the true PS lore" which are bound to follow. I was burned enough with FR: "You don´t know jack! They should have not changed what i didn´t want to be changed, because that is was never should be changed! Why didn´t they just change what i didn´t care about to be changed? It makes no sense!"

No, thanks. I´ll play old Planescape while happily using the new one if it´s any good.

See, to me, this is the perfect attitude to take. The new planar material in no way invalidates the old. Pick what you like and work with it. Just don't start bitching because they are reinvisioning the old - or as Shemeska so vividly points out - sending Igor down to bring back the corpse. Kinda points to how Shemeska views changing any old canon doesn't it?

 

[Shemeska]

See, to me, this is the perfect attitude to take.

Accusing people who don't agree with your opinion of wanting flamewars while happily flaming away? That's a perfect attitude?

The new planar material in no way invalidates the old. Pick what you like and work with it. Just don't start bitching because they are reinvisioning the old - or as Shemeska so vividly points out - sending Igor down to bring back the corpse. Kinda points to how Shemeska views changing any old canon doesn't it?

Re-read what I posted because that's not at all what I mean. Please don't misrepresent my take on this, intentionally or not. How could you get that from what I'd posted, seriously.

And FWIW, I'm not asking that the 4e MotP adhere to any Planescape canon. It's not the same cosmology, not the same setting, and depending on perspective, it's a different game in many ways, so I don't expect it to be faithful to PS canon. But I'd prefer it do its own thing rather than shamble down with Igor to the Planescape product line and go about graverobbing by moonlight to make some sort of planar frankenstein back at the lab.

As I said, I'm not saying to avoid any changes at all (I loved Faction War for God's sake, and many Planescape fans think it destroyed much of the setting), what I'm saying is if you're going to reinvision material, reinvision it fully and also create new material of your own. Don't just rip out some previous concepts and then present them in exceedingly low detail, making it appear half-assed (and we're talking generalities here to some extent since neither of us have read the 4e MotP, but we're talking my preferences on such topics anyways just broadly). It's a new cosmology, I don't expect it to remain faithful to any Planescape lore, but it should stand on its own rather than atop a pyre of prior concepts.

 

[Hussar]

Shemeska, almost every single post you've made about planar material for the past year as it regards 4e has been negative. "They've ruined Yugoloths" "They're graverobbing the setting" "Why can't they be original" on and on.

It's the same as listening to Nightfall going on and on about Scarred Lands. Yes, I get that you are a HUGE Planescape fan. I understand that. I also know that you know far and away more about PS than I will ever know. I accept that perfectly well.

But, when the developers FLAT OUT STATE that the 4e version of the planes is NOT a rehash of earlier edition, but a reinvisioning, judging it based on earlier canon is ridiculous. It's like saying that Smallville sucks because it changes Superman canon. Or Casino Royale sucks because it changes Bond canon. Or saying that the Savage Tide sucks because it places the Isle of Dread in Greyhawk and changes a large amount of the island's history.

It can't change canon. It's part of a separate canon that's inspired by similar sources, but, while it might borrow names and whatnot, isn't linked in any way, shape or form to earlier canon.

Judge it based on what it is rather than trying to tie it to something that it was never meant to be.

 

[Shemeska]

Again, read what I just posted, because you're reading things that I said the opposite of.

And rather than quibble more, I'm going to bed.

 

[Kobold Avenger]

Whoever wrote the entry on the Keepers must have been watching Dark City. Certainly the Keepers were MIBs, possibly from an new unknown plane, but they didn't have anything like that city they were keeping in previous canon.

Well at least Dark City err... Gloomwrought and Keepers go well together.

Can't say much about more of the content until I actually see it.

 

[Knightfall]

On these boards? It looks like Shemmy cares. I think he might be the only one that I've really seen, or at least the most passionate one. Judging from his posts, it just seems like he doesn't like 4e's decision to cut ties with the older edition material 'cuz the older edition material was good for him and didn't really need to be supplanted with something new.

I don't get the impression that it's a very...large number of people who do care. Most people here (and most people who like 4e, quite obviously) don't. I mean, I really don't, and I'm a deeply avowed PS fan.

Shemmy is not the only one who cares. I care. Planescape was a favorite campaign setting of mine back in 2e and I really dislike the fact that WotC has left the PS canon behind. It pisses me off.

Still, I can understand why WotC might want to try something new. But don't throw away the old completely. That's a disservice to Planescape's fans.

I would have preferred if this new MotP was a much thicker book with more planar options. Make it a mix of the old and new. Put two or three cosmologies into the book and give a DM a choice. Sure, make the new cosmology the focus but give the canon its due. And add something else unique like a expanded version of one of the other example cosmologies from the 3e MotP.

WotC should have made the 4e MotP more like Malhavoc's Beyond Countless Doorways. (An awesome book.) Make a MotP that appeals to more than the hardcore 4e fans. If they were to do that, then maybe I might have a glimmer of interest in 4e.

But I do not. Because they have done a disservice to me. And I'm not happy about it.

Just my opinion,

Knightfall1972

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Hey now, don't lump all Planescape fans into feeling "disservice" I am quite excited to see how WoTC reinvents, reimagines, reinterprets and completely makes new Planescape and Planes in general.

So far from what I have seen of MoTP it does just what I want it shows elements of the past but doesn't simply stay with it. But expands and goes in new directions, shows a different way of doing things. I find that as a fan is quite a lot of fun.

I am quite hoping that if Planescape is made into a Campaign Setting this concept of taking old ideas and concepts and going in new directions with them, or reimagining them continues.

 

[Knightfall]

Hey now, don't lump all Planescape fans into feeling "disservice" I am quite excited to see how WoTC reinvents, reimagines, reinterprets and completely makes new Planescape and Planes in general.

So far from what I have seen of MoTP it does just what I want it shows elements of the past but doesn't simply stay with it. But expands and goes in new directions, shows a different way of doing things. I find that as a fan is quite a lot of fun.

I am quite hoping that if Planescape is made into a Campaign Setting this concept of taking old ideas and concepts and going in new directions with them, or reimagining them continues.

Fallen Seraph, I understand your concern about not being lumped into a greater whole. I apologize if you felt I spoke for you (or insulted you) in any manner.

As a fellow Planescape fan, I realize that not every fan's Planescape is the same. It's just when something that I care about gets revised to the point that it doesn't feel te same then I tend to get a little over zealous about it.

Personally, I use a strange variant of Planescape for my World of Kulan campaign setting (i.e. Mirrored Cosmology). Still, that's not the core. It might be outdated nostalgia, but I want the Great Wheel to survive (at least, in some official form). Perhaps it is the diehard Greyhawk in me. Maybe if the Great Wheel lives on (officially) then Greyhawk can live on.

As I said, I'm not saying to avoid any changes at all (I loved Faction War for God's sake, and many Planescape fans think it destroyed much of the setting), what I'm saying is if you're going to reinvision material, reinvision it fully and also create new material of your own. Don't just rip out some previous concepts and then present them in exceedingly low detail, making it appear half-assed (and we're talking generalities here to some extent since neither of us have read the 4e MotP, but we're talking my preferences on such topics anyways just broadly). It's a new cosmology, I don't expect it to remain faithful to any Planescape lore, but it should stand on its own rather than atop a pyre of prior concepts.

"What Shemmy said."

 

[I'm A Banana]

But I do not. Because they have done a disservice to me. And I'm not happy about it.

I think that's a fair enough criticism. I daresay that there's more past-references in the 4e MotP than I expected (Mercykillers? The Great Wheel given a nod?), though. I wouldn't quite come out and say they've realized a mistake quite yet, but I think they're being more careful than they were in the Core or with FR.

I am quite hoping that if Planescape is made into a Campaign Setting this concept of taking old ideas and concepts and going in new directions with them, or reimagining them continues.

My PS4e game isn't too badly affected by the 4e changes. The Blood War goes underground, Celestia's angels get a new name, I kick the chronology forward a few thousand years, no one cares. I don't change what the setting is about, and I make 4e serve that purpose.

Or, I would, but 4e *exhausts* me to write for, so I'm barely able to churn out my next session...

But I think it's possible to respect the history while embracing the changes for PS. It certainly doesn't need to turn out like FR did...

 

[Fallen Seraph]

Oh no feelings of being insulted here. Lol, as a passionate Planescape fan myself I can understand the feeling.

While I haven't seen any indepth posts yet by people who have the books. There is apparently some mention of how to work the Great Wheel into 4e. Perhaps that could be of some interest to you?

Hehe, yeah... That could play a role to perhaps for me. I find 4e the easiest to write with so having lots of reimagining and such just give me more to work with.