Manual of the Planes: The Evolution of Rules Complexity

[Shemeska]

IHowever, as a DM, I find it a REAL headache to remember all those 'special' rules for various situations.

I have to agree with you. As much as I adore the flavor text and atmosphere present in the 2e planar material, I've used the full suite of 'special' rules on a single occasion.

For an evil themed 3.x one-shot game set in Carceri (Othrys, Porphatys, and Minethys) I incorporated the full set of 2e rules regarding spell keys, power keys, restricted spells in Carceri, magic item functions and weapons +'s by plane by plane of forging, and clerical caster level by planar distance from their deity's home plane.

End result? Never again. They drip flavor, but in terms of running the game they're way too complicated for my style of running. I'm incredibly fast and loose with the rules, and the complexities of so many special cases was a bit much.

 

[Soel]

I was always a sucker for the Astral Plane's movement rules. Still, they did screw the non-smarties over too much.

I suppose if you want to add a little of the old back in, you could always allow additional squares of movement based on the Int modifier. I'd probably keep that to combat only, though, so no worries about dummies slowing you down travel-wise.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I am going to post the following on my blog as well, but since it is not exactly widely read (yet) I decided to post it here as well so a few more eyes would see it...

I often hear the cry from D&D grognards that the new versions of the game are 'too complex' or have 'too many rules'. The game has certainly grown more detailed and complex in many ways, but I noticed something curious while I was leafing through the new 4th Edition Manual of the Planes. Take the following rules snippet on moving in the Astral Sea:

"It gains the ability to fly at one half its normal speed if not under the effect of the gravity. It can hover, but it is a clumsy flier."

That's pretty much it. When characters are on the astral plane, they gain the ability to fly at half their normal movement rate (unless they can already fly). Pretty simple and to the point.

Here is the equivalent rule snip from the 1st Edition Manual of the Planes on moving in the Astral Plane:

"Mental movement is achieved by willing oneself in a direction. The maximum speed possible by this method is 10 yards per minute (30 feet per melee round) per intelligence point...Encumbrance slows down the astral traveler by 10' per round for every 10 lbs (100 gp) carried. Intelligence determines additional carrying capacity (use the Strength table on page 9 of the Player's Handbook). Magical items (but not normal items under an enchantment spell) have no encumbrance."*

*NOTE: I left out the information about physical movement versus mental movement, etc. I think that even the excerpt above more than proves my point.

Good grief. How clunky is that?! It seems that not all rules have gotten more complex over time...

Rules have certainly changed over time and some of that change has involved the adding of complexity to the rules. If adding some complexity brings depth and flavor to the game then it may be worth the price.

1E AD&D had some complex subsystems that were not needed in my opinion. 4E has built in core complexity with the same problem.

The majority of people who think 4E is not a complex game may be looking at it through the " rose colored glasses" that came from playing 3E for years. 3E had rules for nearly everything, some good, and some not so good. 4E simplified a great many things often to the point of handwaving them away completely. I think the complexity of 4E has just been redistributed.

The way I see it, the 4E design is prone to more complexity rather than less due to focus on built-in game balance. This will become more apparent as the splat books pile up. Trying to maintain this elusive balance will result in more complexity rather than less. Sure, rules for things like planar environments and other non-combat related things will get greatly simplified. Anything involving combat will absorb all that complexity that was not introduced elsewhere.

Heres the real kicker. Its the relative value of the complexity. The 1E rules you quoted were more involved than the 4E version but at the same time, helped make the astral plane a more different and colorful place.

All the core combat complexity in 4E? All you get are powers and effects that feel kind of the same for every class, more fixation on moving figures around a board, and feeling like a n00b adventurer at every level because you still miss with your best abilities roughly half the time.

 

[AnthonyRoberson]

...Similarly, for a planar adventure, I could see a great two-adventure combo being something like this: The players have to go to Phlegethos, the Fouth Hell, to reach a location called the Molten Citadel, inside which their enemy awaits. While Phlegethos itself isn't instantly lethal to the heroes, the Molten Citadel may be a place of such death and flame that mortals cannot survive there unaided. The DM would then pick two or three things that the PCs need to do before they can go to the Citadel; perhaps they need to gather potions that turn their skins into protection against the hellfire in the Citadel, and maybe the wizard has to obtain a staff that transforms his spells with the Fire keyword into Hellfire spells, allowing him to use them to damage the creatures within the Citadel. Maybe the heroes learn that some monsters can strip away their potions' protectiveness, so they need to wear armor with a special property that kicks in to temporarily protect them until they quaff another potion. Maybe the heat of the Citadel distorts the air so much that they cannot see the path in front of them, so they must obtain the Compass of Melora to cool the air around them and show them the way to their enemies. The adventure then becomes to gather these protective items, and gives you that Lewis & Clark feeling without also just feeling like just another shopping trip. Once these items are in hand, the PCs can then travel the Phlegethos and have their adventure in the Molten Citadel...

Consider this post permalinked and this idea permastolen!

 

[LostSoul]

1E AD&D had some complex subsystems that were not needed in my opinion. 4E has built in core complexity with the same problem.

The majority of people who think 4E is not a complex game may be looking at it through the " rose colored glasses" that came from playing 3E for years. 3E had rules for nearly everything, some good, and some not so good. 4E simplified a great many things often to the point of handwaving them away completely. I think the complexity of 4E has just been redistributed.

Where do you think the complexity has been redistributed to? (I have my own thoughts on that but I want to hear what you have to say.)

 

[ExploderWizard]

Where do you think the complexity has been redistributed to? (I have my own thoughts on that but I want to hear what you have to say.)

For the most part, combat and powers. An ever growing collection of powers that produce numerous status effects. This was just as bad in 3E even though the status effects were seen less often due to buff and ability damage adjustments. The fixation on the square based world and the fiddly push, pull, slide doesn't help either.

The tactical map movement minutae doesn't fit and adds needless complexity to an abstract combat system. If we should be concerned about every little step or maneuver then why not facing or hit location?

When a round lasts six seconds and the combatants all have large pools of generic hit points the finer points of movement and positioning can be similarly abstracted for ease of play.

GURPS handles tactical movement, facing, hit location, effects of wounds and such things very well. If I want that I can play GURPS. I don't need a watered down version of that to bog down my quick and abstract D&D combats.

 

[LostSoul]

For the most part, combat and powers. An ever growing collection of powers that produce numerous status effects. This was just as bad in 3E even though the status effects were seen less often due to buff and ability damage adjustments. The fixation on the square based world and the fiddly push, pull, slide doesn't help either.

Yep, I agree. I like the complexity of 4e, though.

 

[The Little Raven]

This was just as bad in 3E even though the status effects were seen less often due to buff and ability damage adjustments.

Ability drain/damage was the most complex condition in 3e, and often required you to recalculate parts of your character, ranging from your carrying capacity to attack and damage bonuses, all the way down to hit points, skill checks and even skill points (since permanently lowered Intelligence requires you to recalculate all skill points for all levels) in the middle of a combat round. And those conditions were not that uncommon.

The tactical map movement minutae doesn't fit and adds needless complexity to an abstract combat system.

1st Edition D&D used inches as its movement and distance measurements, in order for you to measure out how far your guy can move with miniatures. It's something that has been a part of the game for 30 years.

If we should be concerned about every little step or maneuver then why not facing or hit location?

Because there are degrees of abstraction. It isn't a binary toggle.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Ability drain/damage was the most complex condition in 3e, and often required you to recalculate parts of your character, ranging from your carrying capacity to attack and damage bonuses, all the way down to hit points, skill checks and even skill points (since permanently lowered Intelligence requires you to recalculate all skill points for all levels) in the middle of a combat round. And those conditions were not that uncommon.

No argument here. It got ridiculous.

1st Edition D&D used inches as its movement and distance measurements, in order for you to measure out how far your guy can move with miniatures. It's something that has been a part of the game for 30 years.

Assuming that you wanted to use minis or tokens sure. A 1" grid battlemat makes this easy without the worrying about crap like precise square occupation. 3 fighting men could fight abreast in a 10' wide space. Oh no, that means 3 combatants and 2 squares......IT DOESN'T ADD UP!! THE ANGLES ARE ALL WRONG!!! CTHULLU COMES!!!

Because there are degrees of abstraction. It isn't a binary toggle.

Sure there is, but I will pass on the degrees that bog down the game without adding something interesting enough to put up with it.

 

[Tortoise]

Reading this thread made something very clear to me about edition arguements ... they're all due to the perception by some people that rulebooks are laws instead of suggestions.

Just because something is written down somewhere does not mean that is how it must be done (planar effects as a main example) and by the same token if it isn't written down that does not mean it cannot be done.

I'm a big fan of keeping it simple, and a bigger fan of using other's ideas as fuel for my own ideas.

And when it comes to the process of the game, yes some things are good to work with as written while others become needlessly complicated.

Change it to work for you and your group. You paid for the books (unless you pirated them) they're yours to do with as you see fit so get out the magic marker of the imagination and redact and add as you deem appopriate.

Forget all this "one true wayism", and all this arguement about which edition is better. Frankly that kind of argueing is why I'm hardly on here anymore. This used to be a great site to come and trade ideas, but in the past year it has become less that and more a battleground for edition sniping.

In the effort to change that I offer this idea for a planar area/feature:

Stream of Consciousness

Movement = 1d6 + Intelligence modifier

Although inside a dark void, vision is relatively normal. Lighting seems to be uniform from all directions leaving no shadows.

There is a mild haziness leaving things at range slightly undefined, though not enough to obscure. Perception at range is only reduced by minus 2 until what the person thinks they see is expressed and then the details become more defined.

Example: Described a female with long flowing hair in a blue peasant dress and bodice holding something in one hand. Player mentions Ilsa the bar wench and sure enough, that is now what they all see the image to be.

Take it and mold it to your liking and have fun!