Manuevering in melee

[tetsujin28]

This thread is helping me understand why people think "tactical" combat in 3e/d20 is such a big deal.

I thought everybody played the way we did. :\

They did. They just don't post on the internet, as they're still playing the way they always have. If you survey most groups out there in the 'real world' of rpgs, they use minis. The whole "D&D 3e ate my baby for requiring miniatures and is a tactical minmaxers game!" thing is very much an internet phenomenon.

 

[MonsterMash]

I was a miniatures wargamer before I picked up D&D, so of course we used minis! Buying and painting those little lead figures was half the fun.....

As such, our combats were rarely "stand still and swing your sword for eleven rounds." Our characters were in pretty much constant motion during combat.

Oddly enough my experience is a bit different despite coming from a miniatures background, we did use them sometimes, but not always or sometimes used the Metagaming Melee game board to show placings, most of the time it was just down to imagination though. A good thing when you've got five in a party fighting 10 orcs in a 10-ft square room!

I didn't find using minis slowed down the game as much as in 3e, though possibly due to the absence of square counting.

 

[diaglo]

They did. They just don't post on the internet, as they're still playing the way they always have. If you survey most groups out there in the 'real world' of rpgs, they use minis. The whole "D&D 3e ate my baby for requiring miniatures and is a tactical minmaxers game!" thing is very much an internet phenomenon.

i've been on the internet and posting the whole time...

and i still play the way i did in the 70's, 80's, and 90's....

 

[jmucchiello]

We did way more stuff. Jump on tables, swing from ropes/chandeliers, dive off balconies, etc. Now, no one does anything that might draw an AOO unless he has enough ranks of tumble to get away with it. Then it's usually just tumbling to flank or avoid being flanked. In my experience AOOS drastically limit the drama, and make everyone think in terms of mechanics instead of roleplay.

Then your fighters are cowards. I still jump on tables, swing from ropes and jump off balconies in 3e combat. hps are there to soak up the occasional AoO. Just like they did when we play 1e/2e with minis on a battlemap. Many was the time I would arbitrarily say jumping onto that table will let that orc get a free hack. Typical response to that was, "let him".

 

[diaglo]

Then your fighters are cowards. I still jump on tables, swing from ropes and jump off balconies in 3e combat. hps are there to soak up the occasional AoO. Just like they did when we play 1e/2e with minis on a battlemap. Many was the time I would arbitrarily say jumping onto that table will let that orc get a free hack. Typical response to that was, "let him".

i still do this (read the story hour in my sig) but this has more to do with how i've always played then it has to do with the edition i'm playing.

 

[Numion]

Then your fighters are cowards. I still jump on tables, swing from ropes and jump off balconies in 3e combat. hps are there to soak up the occasional AoO. Just like they did when we play 1e/2e with minis on a battlemap. Many was the time I would arbitrarily say jumping onto that table will let that orc get a free hack. Typical response to that was, "let him".

Exactly. When we first started 3E, people were a bit wary of AoO's, but with experience we've just started to see it as another tactical tool. You gain some, you lose some. Makes for more tactical decisions, but surely as hell doesn't prevent from doing reckless stuff.

 

[MacMathan]

When we first started playing, combats were very fixed and non-tactical even with minis since there were few rules to support it. Of course this eventually led to our attempts at creating custom combat systems. In fact it became a joke in our group, the most feared words a player could hear were "Guys I have come up with this really cool combat system" from the DM.

2e still suffered from much of the same until Combat & Tactics came out near the end. I am glad 3e improved on the C&T rules (IMHO) and gave us a common system of tactical combat so I don't have to relearn a "cool combat system" every time I sit down with a different group.

As made obvious from a number of posts the 3e designers were smart to codify what a number of people had been doing via house rules for a long time.

 

[JRRNeiklot]

Then your fighters are cowards. I still jump on tables, swing from ropes and jump off balconies in 3e combat. hps are there to soak up the occasional AoO. Just like they did when we play 1e/2e with minis on a battlemap. Many was the time I would arbitrarily say jumping onto that table will let that orc get a free hack. Typical response to that was, "let him".

Of course they're cowards! They're pcs. They always choose the optimal attack routine, the one that brings the most reward with the least risk. Boring as hell, but it keeps them alive.

In the current game, I'm a player, not the dm, and I end every major combat with little to no hit points. One uneccessary AOO and I'm dead.

 

[Numion]

Of course they're cowards! They're pcs. They always choose the optimal attack routine, the one that brings the most reward with the least risk. Boring as hell, but it keeps them alive.

In the current game, I'm a player, not the dm, and I end every major combat with little to no hit points. One uneccessary AOO and I'm dead.

I've noticed that sometimes it is very optimal to take those AoO's. Like when a troll is wailing on you, you might want to strike and move away to avoid full attack. Or you might take an AoO so a caster can do a spell without a risk. Or move to the other side of an combatant to let the rogue flank.

But if your DM is putting you constantly against opponents that beat you close to negatives each time, he'd probably do so in any other edition also. Bad DM is a bad DM in any game :\

 

[Steel_Wind]

1st ed - some - not a lot. We tended not to use minis.

2e - sorry - I missed that one entirely and sat 2e out.

Rolemaster 2ed: Hordes of manuevering. We used minis as much then as we do now. There was even more maneuvering under RM2 than 3e as facing was important, lines of fire and cover important and facing was very much a part of the game.

If the purpose of the question is to elicit: is combat more tactical and better in 3E over earlier editions of AD&D?

Yes and HELL yes.