Marking and multiple attacks

[Pickles JG]

I discussed this with the Defender player in question. His line is that an "attack" and an "attack power" are two different things. Marks trigger of attacks, not attack powers. An attack power might allow you to make four attacks, which are each separate and can each trigger a mark effect (and other powers).

Of course, area and close attacks are still just a single attack, even if they have several attack rolls.

This is the Defender's line, but it does sort most of these arguments.

This is my line too. I think its the same as if you roll once for damage its one attack - if you roll lots of times its several attacks.
The definition of "attack" is pretty poor in 4e - it definitely means both a single roll & a whole power at different times so when its not clear you cannot really guess. I think it might mean something else too. Movement is another area where the definition could have been less ambiguous.

 

[Starfox]

With no new comments, I think this is the path I will take (each damage roll is a separate attatck).

 

[jorwland]

This is my line too. I think its the same as if you roll once for damage its one attack - if you roll lots of times its several attacks.
The definition of "attack" is pretty poor in 4e - it definitely means both a single roll & a whole power at different times so when its not clear you cannot really guess. I think it might mean something else too. Movement is another area where the definition could have been less ambiguous.

The PHB specifies that melee attacks and ranged attacks against multiple creatures are indeed separate attacks. (no book with me, but its in the 250+ section of the PHB talking about melee attacks/ranged attacks, etc).

If it has "melee" or "ranged" keyword, then yeah, each attack roll is a "seperate attack" and so all the attack rolls in the OPs example are at -2 except the one against the fighter (the hydra power is melee).

It occurs to me that Close Bursts may be the only attacks that would run into the wierdness described. Are close burst attacks "melee"? Damn...I need the phb to see if all close attacks are melee, lol!

 

[keterys]

There are four attack types: melee, ranged, close, and area.

Ergo, close attacks are not melee

 

[Starfox]

Targeted: Melee attacks target individuals. A melee attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.

Targeted:A ranged attack against multiple enemies consists of separate attacks, each with its own attack roll and damage roll.

✦ Area of Effect: A close attack creates an area of effect, usually a blast or a burst. A close attack affects certain targets within its area of effect...
✦ Multiple Attack Rolls but One Damage Roll: When you make a close attack, you make a separate attack roll against each target in the area of effect, but you make a single damage roll that affects all the targets.

An area attack creates an area of effect, usually a burst or a wall, within range. An area attack affects certain targets within its area of effect,
which has a certain size. ...
✦ Multiple Attack Rolls but One Damage Roll: When you make an area attack, you make a separate attack roll against each target in the area of effect, but you make a single damage roll that affects all the targets.

This seems to work out to "one d20, one attack".

 

[keterys]

This seems to work out to "one d20, one attack".

Err, what? Area and close attacks are definitely exempt from the mark.

It is interesting that Icy Rays or Divine Bolts require multiple damage rolls by RAW.

 

[Starfox]

Err, what? Area and close attacks are definitely exempt from the mark.

They are, as long as the Defender is one of the targets. They have one damage roll, so this supports my claim "one damage roll, one attack".

 

[keterys]

Ah, yeah, sure. You said one d20, one attack. I should've just read past it.

 

[LightPhoenix]

I discussed this with the Defender player in question. His line is that an "attack" and an "attack power" are two different things. Marks trigger of attacks, not attack powers. An attack power might allow you to make four attacks, which are each separate and can each trigger a mark effect (and other powers).

That would be my argument as well. The mark can (afaik) trigger on stuff like OAs, forced attacks, and so forth.

I think RAI is that there are really two attacks being represented here: the hydra heads lash out in all directions, or the heads focus on one or two enemies. I think the power is better represented as a close burst, choose four targets in the burst.

 

[eriktheguy]

Even if the hydra's power were an attack, it would not be affected by the mark, because it does not have any targets. The four individual attacks would have a penalty for the mark if they were targeted at someone other than the fighter. This seems to make sense to me, since the hydra could theoretically target the fighter 4 times, which is what the fighter is trying to force. The power clearly states that 4 attacks are occurring.