D&D 4E Marrying Pathfinder and 4e dnd Homebrew. Take a look please :)

Brian8812

First Post
I started work on a pathfinder home brew that addresses some of my biggest issues with it. I love pathfinder in and out, the systems great for customization and the classes all feel alive and useful by design. My Issue is that 3.5 is still a hefty system and most of its weight is unneeded. I looked around on Google for a pathfinder lite, and I found several but they all had the issue of dropping functionality for archetypes and cut out many of the customization bits I love. Then I remembered how 4e Essentials slimmed down 4e, and took on a more "traditional" d20 leveling progression. So I've combined Pathfinders customization bit with the simpler approach of 4e essentials, in an attempt to streamline.

Health: Follows wounds and vigor rules. The addition of healing surges(borrowing a house rule). surges per/day 5+con healing d6+lvl in combat, and d6+lvl x2 outside of combat with dc 15 heal check. standard in combat to spend healing surge gaining healing and +2 to ac,fort,ref, and will.If unconscious, dc 15 heal to grant unconscious player a spending of surge.Surge Healing can be applied to either vigor of wounds as per rules.

Skills: cut the skills down to athletics,endurance, acrobatics, stealth, thievery, arcana, history, religion, dungeoneering, heal, insight, nature, perception, bluff, diplomacy, intimidate, and streetwise. I used to play 4e and these base skills work for across the board. Also some classes receive special skills. Preform for bards for example. Each class also receive base number of trained skills equal to base skill point(monk has 4+int, so 4 trained skills). All skills receive 1/2 character level(rounded down) scaling. armor check pen applies to all str,dex,and con based skills. Training in skill nets +3 bonus.

Initiative & Speed: normal

Defenses: Uses armor as dr rules.CMD, fort, reflex, and will saves all function normally. Fort,reflex, and will having normal progression determined by class.

Action point: Hero points rules used

Attack bonus, CMB, Damage: function the same

Feats and Ability Score increases: normal

Multiclassing: Functions as normal however gaining half base skills and new trained skills and half hit die +con
My design goals with this is to make for the simplest but most open character creation for pathfinder. skills function as per DnD 4E with bonus from pathfinder. Combat function the same aswell.
Possiblilties:

1st level multiple times per day power becoming at will.
Barbarian:Rage
A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Starting at 1st level, a barbarian can rage for any number of times per day but only for rounds equal to 4 + her Constitution modifier in a given use.

Bard:Bardic Performance
A bard is trained to use the Perform skill to create magical effects on those around him, including himself if desired.
He can use this ability any number of times per day but only for rounds equal to 4 + his Charisma modifier in a given use and can end his performance as a free action and is fatigued after Preforming for a number of rounds equal to 2 times the number of rounds spent in the Preforming.

Cleric: Unlimited casts of domain 3+wis abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + wis+ 1 for every two Cleric levels possessed

Druid: unlimited casts of domain 3+wis abilities or companion.Damaging abilities damage changed to die + wis+ 1 for every two druid levels possessed

Fighter: No change

Monk: Unlimited stunning fist or stunning fist replacement feature

Paladin:Smite Evil (Su)
Any number of times per day, a paladin can call out to the powers of good to aid her in her struggle against evil. As a swift action, the paladin chooses one target within sight to smite.
If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases by 1 per the number of levels the paladin possess. Regardless of the target, smite evil attacks automatically bypass any DR the creature might possess.
In addition, while smite evil is in effect, the paladin gains a deflection bonus equal to her Charisma modifier (if any) to her AC against attacks made by the target of the smite. If the paladin targets a creature that is not evil, the smite is wasted with no effect.
The smite evil effect remains until the target of the smite is dead

Ranger:No change

Rogue: No change

Sorcerer: Unlimited cast of bloodline 3+cha abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + cha+ 1 for every two sorcerer levels possessed

Wizards: Unlimited cast of school 3+int abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + int+ 1 for every two wizard levels possessed

Alchemist: Bomb (Su)
An alchemist can use any number of bombs each day.On a direct hit, an alchemist’s bomb inflicts 2d6 points of fire damage + additional damage equal to the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier + 1 for every two Alchemist levels you possessed.

Cavalier: Challenge
Any number of times per day, a cavalier can challenge a foe to combat. As a swift action, the cavalier chooses one target within sight to challenge. The cavalier’s melee attacks deal extra damage whenever the attacks are made against the target of his challenge. This extra damage is equal to +1, this bonus increases by +1 for every four levels the cavalier possesses.
Challenging a foe requires much of the cavalier’s concentration. The cavalier takes a –2 penalty to his Armor Class, except against attacks made by the target of his challenge.
The challenge remains in effect until the target is dead or unconscious or until the combat ends. Each cavalier’s challenge also includes another effect which is listed in the section describing the cavalier’s order.

Gunslinger: No Change

Inquisitor:Unlimited cast of domain 3+wis abilities. Damaging abilities damage changed to die + wis+ 1 for every two levels possessed

Magus: No Change

Oracle:*work in progress*

Summoner: Unlimited cast of summon monsters, however master summoner may only summon a max of creatures equal to cha modifier

Witch:No change

Ninja,Samurai,Anti-Paladin follow the rules for their alternative class.

Comments and Critiques would be wonderful! How did I do so far? :)
 

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When you posted this on the Paizo boards, the response was that changing the 3+mod per day abilities to at-will is too powerful. How about changing them to once per encounter (five minutes)?
 

When you posted this on the Paizo boards, the response was that changing the 3+mod per day abilities to at-will is too powerful. How about changing them to once per encounter (five minutes)?

In my opinion that would actually be reducing their power, not enhancing it, because in your average "4 or less encounters per day" scheme as it is at most tables, it works out to 1 1/2 to 2 uses per encounter, because most PCs are going to have that ability 6 to 7 times per day.

if people were too worried about "at-will" (which I don't see the overpowereness) then bumping it to 5 + mods per day wouldn't be a bad compromise -- then you're getting almost 3 uses per encounter out of them - not that anyone would, they're too weak past about 4th level.
 

In my opinion that would actually be reducing their power, not enhancing it, because in your average "4 or less encounters per day" scheme as it is at most tables, it works out to 1 1/2 to 2 uses per encounter, because most PCs are going to have that ability 6 to 7 times per day.

if people were too worried about "at-will" (which I don't see the overpowereness) then bumping it to 5 + mods per day wouldn't be a bad compromise -- then you're getting almost 3 uses per encounter out of them - not that anyone would, they're too weak past about 4th level.

Shouldn't there be more than 4 encounters per day if your rules include healing surges and armor as DR? At least at low levels?
 

In my opinion that would actually be reducing their power, not enhancing it, because in your average "4 or less encounters per day" scheme as it is at most tables, it works out to 1 1/2 to 2 uses per encounter, because most PCs are going to have that ability
6 to 7 times per day.

There's also value in being able to use the ability when you want, say being able to use it consistently in an encounter where it is extra-useful, and not at all in an encounter where it is less helpful or even useless.
 

Comments and Critiques would be wonderful! How did I do so far? :)

Good job. I'm also looking at Pathfinder for the 1st time and there are some things that I want to use in it. I'd also like to combine the best of 4E and Pathfinder with my own home brew rules. I'm even working on a Javascript application to play test it all.

Here are some of my observations that might help you.

(1)
Pathfinder hit points are ridiculously too low. If a 6th level sorcerer has 22 hit points, she'll get killed off quickly all the time. But 4E's hit point allocations are a bit imbalanced.
I came up with Fighter-like classes get Strength Ability Score+12/12 healing surges/+12 hit points leveling up in the fighter-like class

Rogue-like classes get Strength Ability Score+10/10 healing surges/+10 hit points leveling up in the rogue-like class

cleric-like gets +8 hit points leveling up
wizard-like gets +6 hit points leveling up, etc.

(2)
Pathfinder's attack melee, range, and DC spell saves are very confusing. 4E's system of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defenses are better.
But how about something even simpler.

melee attack = attacker's 1d20+strength mod+1/2 level +/- combat modifiers versus defender's armor class+1/2 level

ranged attack=attacker's 1d20+dexterity mod+1/2 level +/-combat modifiers versus defender's 10+dexterity mod+1/2 level

spell attack=attacker's 1d20+intelligence mod+1/2 level +/-combat modifiers versus defender's 10+intelligence mod+1/2 level

skill check=the character's 1d20+skill ranks+1/2 level +/- situation modifiers versus a difficulty class based on 10+trap setter's skill ranks+1/2 trap setter's level

ability check=the character's 1d20+relevant ability modifier+1/2 level +/- situation modifiers versus a set difficulty class table based on tiers.
 

I won't speak to 4e any more than needed, as our group decided early on not to switch.

(1)
Pathfinder hit points are ridiculously too low. If a 6th level sorcerer has 22 hit points, she'll get killed off quickly all the time. But 4E's hit point allocations are a bit imbalanced.

Like most comparisons, this depends largely on perspective. Pathfinder characters are generally a bit better off than 3.5 and prior D&D editions, with no d4 hit dice for pure arcane casters (many characters got a die upgrade) and death at negative CON rather than negative 10.

My understanding is that 4e removes a lot of [FONT=&quot]verisimilitude [/FONT]in giving PC's healing surges, higher hp, etc. that the opposition doesn't get. In Pathfinder (and D&D 3.5) starting characters are not head and shoulders above, say, orcs and goblins. Starting characters that are do not strike me as "worse" or "better" from a gameplay perspective, only different. Characters who can battle through a dozen encounters in a day, and characters who emerge from only one bloody and battered are two different styles, neither being objectively superior.


I came up with Fighter-like classes get Strength Ability Score+12/12 healing surges/+12 hit points leveling up in the fighter-like class

Rogue-like classes get Strength Ability Score+10/10 healing surges/+10 hit points leveling up in the rogue-like class

cleric-like gets +8 hit points leveling up
wizard-like gets +6 hit points leveling up, etc.

Comparative hp are, IMO, more relevant than absolutes. Fighters getting double the hp of wizards seems not all that different from fighters getting 1d10 plus a CON bonus typically +2 or +3, and Wizards getting 1d6 + 1 or 2 CON bonus. The fighter averages 8 hp, and the wizard 5, per level, so the fighter doesn't quite double the wizard.

(2)
Pathfinder's attack melee, range, and DC spell saves are very confusing. 4E's system of Fortitude, Reflex, and Will defenses are better.
But how about something even simpler.

I don't find pathfinder's attack or save system confusing. Again, this is subjective, not objective.

melee attack = attacker's 1d20+strength mod+1/2 level +/- combat modifiers versus defender's armor class+1/2 level

ranged attack=attacker's 1d20+dexterity mod+1/2 level +/-combat modifiers versus defender's 10+dexterity mod+1/2 level

All this does, IMO, is make it easier to hit weaker opponents and tougher to hit stronger ones. The +1/2 per level equalizes out if the opponents are the same level. So powerful foes who will already have a better AC, and likely better STR, get an even better improvement to their chance to hit and to avoid damage, and weaker creatures are weakened even further. Meanwhile, there is very little differentiation between PC's - only their STR mod (DEX for range) will cause any variation between the Fighter and the Wizard.

Class hardly matters in success or failure, only level. Not an approach I would favour.
 


Shouldn't there be more than 4 encounters per day if your rules include healing surges and armor as DR? At least at low levels?

I honestly can't see too much more than 4 encounters in one game-time day, maximum, because there are only so many encounters you can cram into one 4 to 6 hour real-time session, and people tend to dislike playing one "game-day" over several weeks of real time. So, if you had 6 or 8 encounters in a game day, you'd take a at least two weeks worth of real time to resolve one game day. This is fine once in a while, but if it were a feature of the game, people would balk.

Now, if you somehow managed to make combats take no more than 10 minutes of real time, max per combat, it might be different. However, I really haven't seen that in D&D in a very, very long time -- like the days of OD&D. I never had a 10 min. long combat even back in 1st edition days, or maybe a few Savage worlds combats like that. But for the most part, if you have more than 4 combats in a single session, it seems to feel a little too "wall-to-wall combat" to most people I've talked to.
 

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