Marshal port (+warlord)

[mellored]

Porting the 3.5 marshal, while rolling in the 4e warlord powers.


1d8 hit dice
Proficiencies: Medium armor, simple and martial weapons, and shield
Wis saving throws, and your choice of Intelligence or Charisma.
4 skills.


Level 1:
Helpful: The range of any Martial feature is 5' times your Int + Cha modifiers. For example, +3 Int and +3 Cha would give you 30'. You must be able to clearly communicate with the target to have any effect. The DC for any Martial feature is 5 + Int + Cha + proficiency bonus.
In addition, you can use the Help with your action or a Martial feature, the target can reroll one of the d20 if it rolls is equal or lower to your INT or CHR modifier. You must use the new roll. You can also use then help action to help with attack rolls at your Marshal range.

Skill Focus (sub-class): You gain expertise in a skill. Based on your choice, you will gain additional features at level 3, 6, 14, and 18.

Guileful Strike: As a bonus action, you can use your cunning and wit to create an opening. Your gain a bonus to-hit on your next attack against the target this turn, equal to your Int or Cha.

Level 2:
Overwatch: You keep an eye out for tactical opportunities, able to react as needed. You know a number of overwatches equal to 1+ half your Marshal level. As an action, you can activate an overwatch and it remains active as long as you maintain concentration on it, as if you were concentrating on a spell, except you don't need to make a Concentration save when you take damage. You can change to another overwatch as an action.


(Most use your reaction, but it's flexible like warlock invocations).

• Accurate Strike: When an ally rolls a 15 or higher on their d20 for an attack roll, you can use your reaction to turn it into a critical hit.
• At the Ready: Allies gain a +1d4 to their initiative rolls.
• Aurdor: If an ally rolls a 1 on any damage roll, they can reroll it. They must use their new result.
• Art of War: When an ally makes a disarm, grapple, and shove check, you can use your reaction to take the help action, giving them advantage on their roll.
• Battlefront Leader: When you roll initiative and are not surprised, one creature can move 10' before the battle starts.
• Determined Caster: When an ally casts a spell that requires a saving throw, you can use your reaction to boost the DC by 2.
• Direct the Strike: When an ally misses with an attack, you can use your reaction to let them immediately make another attack against the same target.
• Hardy Soldiers: When an ally takes damage, you can use your reaction to reduce that damage by half.
• Lead the Assualt: When you make an attack against a target, and another creature attacks the target before the end of your next turn, you can use your reaction take the help action, giving them advantage for their attack.
• Resilient Troops: When an ally makes a saving throw, you can use your reaction to give them advantage on the save.
• Master of Opportunity: When an ally provokes an opportunity attack, you can use your reaction to prevent it.
• Master of Tactics: If 2 or more allies are adjacent to a target, they gain +1d4 to attack rolls against the target.
• Motivate: When you activate this overwatch, choose an attribute. When a creature makes that skill check using that attribute, you can use your reaction to give them advantage. At level 5, you can activate this overwatch multiple times, choosing a different attribute each time.
• No Gambit is Wasted: When an ally expends a spell or feature that ends up not having any effect, such as if an enemy succeeded against hold person or against a monks stunning fist (not fireball with it's half damage) you can use your reaction to have them not expend that resource. Once you use this feature, you cannot use it again on the same ally until they take a short rest.
• Reorient The Axis: Increase the speed of each ally by 5'.
• Warning Shout: When an ally is hit by an attack, you can use your reaction to give disadvantage on that attack, potentially changing the results.
• Wolf Pack Tactics: When you make an attack against a creature within range, an ally adjacent to you or the target can move 5' without provoking an opportunity attack.

(Add in more, including enemy debuffing).

Level 3: Skill Focus

Level 4: ABI

Level 5: Improved Overwatch. When you use Overwatch, you can choose 2, gaining the benefits of both.
Opportunity Strike: At the end of any turn, you can use your reaction to move up to half your speed and make a single weapon attack.

Level 6: Skill Focus.

Level 7: Mindful Defense: You gain proficiency in Charisma or Intelligence saves, whichever you don't have.
Expertise: You gain expertise in a second skill.

Level 8: ABI

Level 9: Extra Helpful: When you Help with your action or a Martial feature, the target can reroll one of the d20 if it rolls is equal or lower to your INT + CHR modifier. You must use the new roll.

Level 10: Well Rounded: Increase your lowest 3
4 abilities scores by 1.

Level 11: Superior Overwatch: When you use Overwatch, you can choose 3. In addition, you gain an extra reaction each round (2 total), but can only use one per triggering event.

Level 12: ABI

13: ???

14: Skill Focus.

15: Predict Ambush: You can no longer be surprised.
Expertise: You gain expertise in a third skill.

Level 16: ABI

Level 17: Supreme Overwatch: When you use Overwatch, you can choose 4. In addition, you gain 1 extra reaction each round (3 total), but can only use one per triggering event.

Level 18: Skill Focus.

Level 19: ABI

Level 20: Mental Champion: +2 Int and +2 Cha.



_________________________
Skill Focus:
Stealth
Level 3: When you hide, you also help any ally in range to perform a stealth checks before the start of your next turn.
Level 6: When you use an action to hide, you can also take the dodge action.
Level 14: At the start of each of your turns, you can make a hide check.
Level 18: At the end of each of your turns, you can make a hide check.

Medicine:
Level 3: As a bonus action, you can allow a creature to spend a hit dice.
Level 6: When you allow a creature to spend hit dice, maximize the die roll.
Level 14: If a creature died within the last minute, but did not die from massive damage, you can bring them back to life with 1 hit point. They remain unconcious until they take a long rest.
Level 18: ???

Intimidate:
Level 3: As an action, you can attempt to scare a humanoid enemy. They make a Wisdom saving throw. If they fail, they are afraid of you until the end of your next turn. Once you use this against a creature, they are immune to it for 1 hour.
Level 6: As an action, you can attempt to scare everyone in a cone.
Level 14: Your fear works on any creature.
Level 18: Creatures cannot attack you until you performed a hostile action towards them or one of their friends. Creatures immune to fear are immune to this effect.

Persuasion
Level 3: As an action, you can attempt to charm a humanoid enemy. They make a Wisdom saving throw. If they fail, they are of charmed by you until the end of your next turn. Once you use this against a creature, they are immune to it for 1 hour.
Level 6: Charm in a cone
Level 14: Your charm works on any creature.
Level 18: Creatures cannot attack you until you performed a hostile action towards them or one of their friends. Creatures immune to charm are immune to this effect.

Performance:
Level 3: As an action, you can start a performance. Anyone who can see you is distracted and takes disadvantage on all Wisdom checks, (-5 to passive perception and insight).
Level 6: During a short rest, you can give an inspirational performance to your allies. They gain Temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.Level 14: As an action, you can give a quick inspirational performance to your allies in range. They gain Temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.
Level 18: At the start of each of your turns, each ally within range gainss temporary hit points equal to your Charisma modifier.

(add in other skills, as well as 14 and 18)

 

[Blue]

Just some thoughts as I go through it.

4 skills and expertise - this is quite the skills monkey. I don't remember the 3.5 marshal all that well.

Helpful: When you give someone advantage with the help action, they cannot roll lower on the d20 than your Int or Cha (minimum 2).

Is this INT/CHR MOD or the raw score? The former seems too little, the latter way too much.

Also, what does "you cannot roll lower" mean? If you roll lower does it get pushed up to that score or do you reroll until you are above it? The first is pretty useless if this is ability score mod, but brings the power of it up to useful amounts. It's like Halfling Lucky trait on steroids.

If you'll accept a suggestion, I think I'd rewrite it as "When you grant advantage with the Help action as a Action, you can reroll the d20 if it is equal or lower to your INT or CHR modifier (min 1) and must use the new roll."

It's slightly weaker (min 1 like Lucky and only 1 reroll) and more powerful (reroll up to your modifier instead of just under it).

The "as an Action" means that you don't almost force people to multiclass to the Rogue (Mastermind) for Master of Tactics.

(EDIT from later: "...or as a Reaction" so you can use your Lead the Assaut Overwatch.)

Overwatch: You keep an eye out for tactical opportunities, able to react as needed. You know a number of overwatches equal to 1+ half your Marshal level. As a bonus action, you can activate an overwatch and it remains active as long as you maintain concentration on it, as if you were concentrating on a spell. You can choose another overwatch with another bonus action.

I like that mechanically. A lot. It keeps witht he "concentration to buff", uses the mechanic nicely on a non-spellcaster, allows arbitrary large duration without worrying about buff stacking, gives a risk, and just works thematically. Two thumbs up.

It's not entirely clear if you can switch between different bonuses as long as your overwatch stays up, or if doing so consumes another use of overwatch.

I'm recommend that you need to be able to communicate with them, and it occures whenever an overwatch occurs. It's thematic, and stops things like "well the slime gets my Overwatch because ... I wiggle at it". I say communicate not speak, so shared sign language, telepathy, anything like that is fine.

The range of any Martial feature is 5' times your Int + Cha modifiers. For example, +3 Int and +3 Cha would give you 30'.
The DC for any Martial feature is 5 + Int + Cha + proficiency bonus.

Interesting double DC. Probably starts 1-2 points lower than usual and could end up 2 points higher. Unorthodox but workable. My only concern is that someone with rolled stats could blow it out of the park early.

You mention Warlock invocations, which made me think that you only got a few to start, but it seems you have every one. I'd prefer to see a "overwatch known" list just to cut down on options on your turn to keep things moving. Plus that's in line with invocations, superiority dice, spells, and most everything else.
BTW, Accurate Strike is a big change. All allies scoring crits on all attacks on a 19 could be a huge boost, especially with someone like a GWM barbarian. That's taking the defining characteristic of the Champion and giving it to everyone with multiclassing. I'd rather see that limited, and not just to one ally since it's like one ally that can really benefit from it. Most of the other cool ones use your reaction so are limited in how often it applies and in action economy.

Master of Tactics is borderline - it's Bless on as many allies as you can share melee/touch targets with that stacks with actual Bless. Actually, I think it is a bit over the top without some limitation on it. Could be "a target you've attack since the start of your last round".

Motivate is a broad spectrum ranged Help action. Very useful at all times. Give your allies CHR during social interactions, it's rare more than one will be making a roll at a time. Give the grappler STR. It's quite wide ranging, very useful in a good range of situations.

Really like No Gambit is Wasted.

Level 3 and 6 is Skill Focus, what's that?

(EDIT: Nevermind, found it.)

Level 9: Clever Strike: You can add Int or Cha to your weapon attack damage rolls.

Aren't these type of boosters commonly at 11th?

Extra Helpful: When you give advantage with the help action, the roll cannot be below your Int + Cha.

This sort of verifies it was just modifiers. But even there it's getting up there. Since it's also with advantage, that neither die can be below that mod will end up giving some really fantastic rolls.

Persuasion
Level 3: As an action, you can attempt to charm an enemy....
Level 6: Charm in a cone
...

With unlimited attempts to charm, I'd suggest "any target that saves can not be affected against for 24 hours".

Also, is it all types of targets? Comparing to spells, which there is only Charm Person, there is Dominate Beast, Dominate Person, and Dominate Monster - the last being 4 levels higher (8th) than the first.

 

[mellored]

Just some thoughts as I go through it.

4 skills and expertise - this is quite the skills monkey. I don't remember the 3.5 marshal all that well.

They had 4+Int skill points.

And as a less-combat focused class, yea they could use more skills. Still slightly less than rogues who get 4 skills and 4 expertises.

If you'll accept a suggestion, I think I'd rewrite it as "When you grant advantage with the Help action as a Action, you can reroll the d20 if it is equal or lower to your INT or CHR modifier (min 1) and must use the new roll."

Better.
How about "reroll one of the dies"?

I like that mechanically. A lot. It keeps witht he "concentration to buff", uses the mechanic nicely on a non-spellcaster, allows arbitrary large duration without worrying about buff stacking, gives a risk, and just works thematically. Two thumbs up.

Thanks.

I'm recommend that you need to be able to communicate with them, and it occures whenever an overwatch occurs. It's thematic, and stops things like "well the slime gets my Overwatch because ... I wiggle at it". I say communicate not speak, so shared sign language, telepathy, anything like that is fine.

Good idea.

Interesting double DC. Probably starts 1-2 points lower than usual and could end up 2 points higher. Unorthodox but workable. My only concern is that someone with rolled stats could blow it out of the park early.

Yea. Though there aren't many DC saves. Just charm and fear in the sub-class. I am avoiding anything potent like a stun.

You mention Warlock invocations, which made me think that you only got a few to start, but it seems you have every one.

There is a limited. 1+half your marshal level. So starts at 2 known, and going to 11 known.
Might be a little high on the top end. But then again, wizards can know 100+ spells.

BTW, Accurate Strike is a big change. All allies scoring crits on all attacks on a 19 could be a huge boost, especially with someone like a GWM barbarian.

Possibly. Crits aren't too potent in general.
I origionally had "as a reaction, when an ally rolls a 19, you can turn it into a crit". But that felt a bit weak.
Maybe 17-20, using a reaction?

Master of Tactics is borderline - it's Bless on as many allies as you can share melee/touch targets with that stacks with actual Bless. Actually, I think it is a bit over the top without some limitation on it. Could be "a target you've attack since the start of your last round".

Fair.

Really like No Gambit is Wasted.

Yea. I liked it alot in 4e too.

Aren't these type of boosters commonly at 11th?

Yes. Though clerics get +1d8 at level 8 and 14. And if your boosting Str/Dex, then your Int/Cha can't be huge.

This sort of verifies it was just modifiers. But even there it's getting up there. Since it's also with advantage, that neither die can be below that mod will end up giving some really fantastic rolls.

Only if you invest 4 ABI into it. In which case, go ahead and be really good at helping people.

Also, it doesn't increase the maximum. Only the minimum.

With unlimited attempts to charm, I'd suggest "any target that saves can not be affected against for 24 hours".

Yea. It was supposed to be the same as intimidate.

Also, is it all types of targets? Comparing to spells, which there is only Charm Person, there is Dominate Beast, Dominate Person, and Dominate Monster - the last being 4 levels higher (8th) than the first.

Fair.
Possibly humans at level 3, and upgrade to other creatures at higher levels.



Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Guest 6801328]

Glad to see more experimentation with trading attacks (or other resources) for bonus reactions. If this permeates the meme-o-sphere maybe it will eventually make it into something official.

 

[Blue]

Looks good. Not going to comment on much of your post because I'd just be agreeing.

A CHR+INT build coudl be a fantastic skills monkey along those lines, and you could be personally weak at combat. But in both combat and outside of it you can be a big booster. I like that - it's making it's own niche.

I had misread the 1+half level as daily uses, not Overwatches known. Thanks for clearing that up. That also answers my question about if it "uses another" to change.

It does make concentration less important though - there's little cost to starting it back up on your turn and at worst you've lost a round, though likely you've only lost half a round. I wish there was some larger trade-off, like limited uses or something. The bonus action isn't highly contested with this build, except maybe if you pick Medicine skill focus.

On crits: you're right that crits aren't too potent - except for the build that focuses on them. You don't have crit-fishers like you do in earlier editions, but you can still get a bonus action attack (GWM), bonus weapon dice (half-orc and barbarian), or add a bunch of additional dice to get multiplied (paladin and rogue). Many of those stack.

Hmm, maybe make crits more potent for everyone, so then being able to confirm one with your reaction is worthwhile. Grant an extra die to all allies on a crit (like half-orc), and spend a reaction to allow a crit on a XX or higher (18?). I'm just trying to work out something that is worthwhile with average allies, but isn't too powerful with a crit-focused build.

Just an idea, there are lots of directions to take it.

Hey, random other thought that just occured to me. At high levels, having 4 Overwatches up, especially since there are several that don't take a reaction, is a lot of buffing in the 5e concentration paradigm. How about instead of the 3rd increase, you get +INT or CHR to concentration saves? Or advantage when adjacent to an ally?

 

[mellored]

It does make concentration less important though - there's little cost to starting it back up on your turn and at worst you've lost a round, though likely you've only lost half a round. I wish there was some larger trade-off, like limited uses or something. The bonus action isn't highly contested with this build, except maybe if you pick Medicine skill focus.

Fair. But I didn't want it to be too punishing if your in melee, paticularly without Con saves.

I'll bump it to a full action, and add in some kind of concentration bonus.

Hey, random other thought that just occured to me. At high levels, having 4 Overwatches up, especially since there are several that don't take a reaction, is a lot of buffing in the 5e concentration paradigm.

It depends on how you look at it.

For instance, bless gives you 3 buffs.
+1d4 to attack rolls.
+1d4 to saving throws.
+1d4 to abilities checks.

Haste gives you 4 buffs.
+Double speed
+2 AC
+advantage on Dex saves
+an extra attack.

Greater invisibility has 5 buffs.
+adantage to hit.
+disavantage to be hit.
+don't provoke OA's.
+can't be targeted by many spells.
+can hide anywhere.

Foresight is 3 buffs and doesn't take concentration.
And paladin's, who can both bless (3 buffs) and has auras (3 buffs, maybe 8 buffs if you count each bonus to save as seperate).


Thus 4 flexible buffs at higher levels seem about right. Possibly a bit weak. Hard to say without actual playtesting.

How about instead of the 3rd increase, you get +INT or CHR to concentration saves?

Good idea, but that's a big bonus to any multi-classing wizard /bard/sorcerers/warlock.
Probably best to keep it simple and just not having Concentration saves on damage.

 

[mellored]

Also, what do you think of this?

Guileful Strike: When you make a weapon attack roll with a ranged or finesse weapon, you can use Int in place of Dex for the to-hit roll and Cha in place of Dex for the damage roll.


Reduces MAD a bit.

 

[Blue]

Good idea, but that's a big bonus to any multi-classing wizard /bard/sorcerers/warlock.

If a player want to take 11 levels of a class that really relies heavily on using your concentration slot in order to boost your concentration saves with spells ... well, more power to you.

 

[mellored]

If a player want to take 11 levels of a class that really relies heavily on using your concentration slot in order to boost your concentration saves with spells ... well, more power to you.

I missread that as 3rd level, not 3rd increase.

 

[FrogReaver]

Also, what do you think of this?

Guileful Strike: When you make a weapon attack roll with a ranged or finesse weapon, you can use Int in place of Dex for the to-hit roll and Cha in place of Dex for the damage roll.


Reduces MAD a bit.

I've been meaning to respond to your ideas in this thread.

I dislike any attack stat changing ability unless it's sufficiently magical. Thus I can live with the hexblades though I wish it wasn't level 1 or had some other restriction on it that made it not as good for multiclassing.

A Warlord isn't magical so shouldn't be messing with attack stats. He's mundane and if Int or Cha helps him attack better then Int or Cha should help everyone attack better