Marshal: Who likes this class, and why?

[Felon]

Everyone who says the marshal is a weak class is wrong. I have seen the marshal played many times in many ways and it is horridly abusable. The biggest problem is the comparative benefit for a dip. There is no good reason for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer to NOT take a level of marshal, for the initiative bonus if nothing else.

There are certainly good reasons for a bard, paladin, or sorcerer not to take a level of marshall. The +0 BAB hurts the paladin, the loss of skill points hurts the bard, the loss of spellcasting progression hurts the sorcerer, and in general advancing in another class means you don't advance in your current one. All a marshal gets at first level is a minor aura and Skill Focus (Diplomacy). The minor auras are just that--minor. If high-level combat seems to consist of one-round battles, then we're only talking about a symptom of the disease. If the players have a rock, get some paper. If they've got paper, get some scissors (and stab'em!).

I agree with a lot of this. If you have high stats, the abilities are huge. Too huge. With a 32 point point-buy you will probably only be given +3 or +4 bonuses at 1st level, and getting close to +7 by 10th level (+1 from levels, +2 from item). If you are playing wacky ECL types with huge CHR bonuses it gets silly....

So let's add that a marshal's minor aura bonus can't be greater than 1+level/3 (round up). So +2 at levels 1-3, +3 at 4-6, hitting +8 at level 19. (still huge). Add in the BAB or my suggested bonus feats, and I think you have a winner.

So, the problem isn't with the marshal class, but rather with high-point builds, wacky ECL types, and other factors. Which is the same problem you have with any ability-score-derived ability (i.e. divine grace, monk AC bonus, various cleric divine feats), or saving throws, or melee attacks, or spell DC's, and so forth. Why single out the marshal for hamstringing?

 

[Paragon Kobold]

I play a Marshall in a Birthright campaign. As a non-magical military style class, it fits very much into that world.

 

[Fishbone]

I don't think it all that broken. Even the Aura of Dexterity isn't that bad.
Think about it.
Roll a 17 for charisma.
2 Points in it.
+6 from a cloak
+5 inherant
Thats a 30 in Charisma. Everybody gets a +10 to initiative, wahoo!
Lets say you play something cheesy to get a lot of charisma bonuses, like a Magic-Blooded Dragonwrought Venerable Kobold and find some more adventurous ways to weasel 6 more points of charisma and put another point from advancement in Charisma.
42 Charisma. +16 to initiative, wahoo! Except at this time the druid has a Animal Companion with nearly as many HD as you and is casting spells as a bloody Elder Elemental, the Magic User is stopping time and doing all sorts of wackiness, the barbarian hits harder and gets uber rage, and the rogue with the Roguefriend weapon is dealing 12d6 damage a crack from Sneak Attack. And all this is if you ubertwink your charisma score to a silly level. Whats stronger, 42 Charisma Marshal or 42 Charisma Sorcerer or Favored Soul? Exactly. The Marshal doesn't need any more gimping.

 

[Gold Roger]

I love the class, but I'm in the camp that it needs some more, especially more to do. Giving passive boni is great and all, but when all you can do yourself is stand there and wack your opponent it's just not as much fun.

I think some bonus feats and one or two additional tactical class feature would make it golden.

 

[Enkhidu]

...Except at this time the druid has a Animal Companion with nearly as many HD as you and is casting spells as a bloody Elder Elemental, the Magic User is stopping time and doing all sorts of wackiness, the barbarian hits harder and gets uber rage, and the rogue with the Roguefriend weapon is dealing 12d6 damage a crack from Sneak Attack. And all this is if you ubertwink your charisma score to a silly level. Whats stronger, 42 Charisma Marshal or 42 Charisma Sorcerer or Favored Soul? Exactly. The Marshal doesn't need any more gimping.

This misses the point of the Marshal.

Let's take a look at what that +16 to initiative actually gives the group as a whole - it means that the chance for everyone on the party to go first is dramatically increased. Now let's take a look at the fallout from this in a well oiled party - for the sake of arguement, let's assume that (like many other well oiled parties) this one is accustomed to delaying in order to maximize tactics.

1) Party delays until after the mage's Time Stop. Butt-whoopin' commences.
2) Druid then lays spell smackdown of his own.
3) Marshal grants a move action to his companions, allowing them to move into proper position for full attack.
4) Rogue opens up with a barrage of 12d6 sneak attacks on a flatfooted opponent (they haven't gone yet!).
5) Barbarian rages and makes something bleed. A lot.
6) Animal companion whacks the remaining bad guy(s).
7) It's Miller time.

Marshals are not character meant to lay down the smack. But you will be hard pressed to find a class better suited to making everyone around them better.

 

[brehobit]

So, the problem isn't with the marshal class, but rather with high-point builds, wacky ECL types, and other factors. Which is the same problem you have with any ability-score-derived ability (i.e. divine grace, monk AC bonus, various cleric divine feats), or saving throws, or melee attacks, or spell DC's, and so forth. Why single out the marshal for hamstringing?

Because +10 to all saves for a given PC is nice, but not gamebreaking. That PC gave up a lot to get that +10 (ECL or something). However, +10 damage to all PCs and allies when flanking _is_ game breaking. +10 to overcome SR to ALL casters is also game breaking (that is the reason for a sorc to dip one level. It basically negates SR.)

Mark