Martial Artist and Gunslinger extra attacks

[takyris]

Pardon me if this has been asked before. Possibly missed something in the FAQ:

The Martial Artist and the Gunslinger both have an ability that effectively mirrors Two-Weapon Fighting. The Martial Artist has Flurry of Blows, while the Gunslinger has Lightning Shot. Both abilities give the person an extra attack at the highest bonus, while all attacks take a -2 penalty.

Can either or both of these abilities stack with two-weapon fighting?

Example:

Joe Gunslinger has improved two-weapon fighting and a pair of his favorite guns.

Normal, nothing-special Full Attack:

+15/+10

Lightning Shot:
+13/+13/+8

Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
+13/+8 and +13/+8 offhand

Can he combine these?

Lightning + Improved Two-Weapon:

+11/+11/+6 and +11/+6 offhand

In the spirit of balance and fair play, I'd expect that you couldn't. I just want to have something official ready if my players bring it up.

I'm also expecting that if the Gunslinger can do it, the Martial Artist can do it as well. Their abilities are functionally equivalent, despite the flavor text of "there is no off-hand for the Living Weapon ability".

-Tacky

 

[Plane Sailing]

My initial thought is that I would allow the flurry and the lightning shots to be combined with an additional attack from two-weapon fighting (although obviously both only add one additional attack - it almost goes without saying that we wouldn't countenance a lightning shot with each gun!)

I don't have strong feelings about this, and I'd easily be swayed by strong arguments one way or the other.

Cheers,
Alex

 

[takyris]

Yeah, I honestly don't know. I know that in D&D, monks couldn't combine a flurry of blows with two-weaponing. On the other hand, this ain't D&D. In this system, taking two -2 penalties on top of each other gets pretty expensive pretty fast.

And I rather vociferously believe that if it's true one way for the martial artist, it darn well better be true the same way for the gunslinger.

I just don't know which way that is.

-Tacky

 

[jeffhartsell]

At first I was thinking that since the abilities require a full-round action they could not be combined with two-weapon, but now I'm not sure.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Yes, it is possible. You get another attack, and all your attacks get another -2.

Note that lightning shot will only give you one extra attack, not one per weapon, same goes with flurry.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I hope my confidence in the designers is justified in this, but I feel that if they'd wished to give the classes an ability which wouldn't stack with TWF/ITWF/ATWF, they would have simply given each class TWF itself. And if it's not supposed to be derived from using both hands, I can't possibly understand it not stacking.

Same thing goes for the monk in D&D though...

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Same thing goes for the monk in D&D though...

That's because the monks use their whole body, anyway. There's no such thing as an off-hand attack if you'll use both hands, and pretty much the rest of your body, anyway. Also, monks get a better attack rate, and it would probably be to much if they could also get the additional attacks from two-weapon fighting.

 

[Saeviomagy]

However later material published (mainly about monstrous attack routines, items such as spiked armour and bladed boots, spells which grant extra natural weapons etc) suggests that TWF DOES simulate whole-body fighting to some extent. In addition, the description of flurry allows it to be used with a pair of weapons, in which case it is functioning identically to TWF+ambidexterity.

I think it was originally just a way to give the monk TWF without allowing it to apply to any weapon. I'd be far more comfortable with them saying "the monk gets the virtual feats TWF and ambidexterity, which only apply when he fights unarmed or with monk weapons", not to mention clearing up some of the rules covering multiple attacks (whether granted via natural weapons or manufactured weapons).

 

[Kae'Yoss]

He applies the whole STR bonus to all his attacks, while attacks with an off-hand weapon only get half the STR bonus. Also, you can get additional attacks with your off-hand, which isn't possible for monks (or is rather limited to a single additional attack, with all the attacks suffering further penalties, while the additional off-hand attacks won't affect the existing ones.)