Martial Practices how can we fix them, systematically?

[Garthanos]

[MENTION=82106]AbdulAlhazred[/MENTION] "good old Vancian".... I call that an oxymoron and the first subsystem anyone changed in AD&D.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

"good old Vancian".... I call that an oxymoron and the first subsystem anyone changed in AD&D.

WELL, remember, the ACTUAL magic system of The Dying Earth is NOT the D&D magic system. Vance never talked about 'levels' or anything like that. Each wizard first of all knew certain spells, and they generally didn't share willingly. Secondly each one varied in his ability to memorize. Some could hold but one or two spells in memory, others a dozen. While there was a passage somewhere that hinted that some spells might be more difficult to memorize, there wasn't any statement that this resulted in a decrease in overall number of spells. It is equally likely it just meant some were out of the grasp of lesser casters, or they might miscast them (a distinct danger in his stories).

Casters also relied on IOUN stones to increase their casting capability and do other things. Presumably there might be other items with similar uses. Definitely there were many D&D-esque magic items that had single functions.

4e wizards are actually not a BAD model of Vancian wizards. I don't recall any at-will powers that Vance described, but many wizards did have captive magical beings that could perform certain magical tasks for them on command. Beyond that wizards tended to spend some time memorizing a selected list of spells, but its not clear that all of them required the same time, so you COULD consider encounter powers to be the 'easier' spells. I don't think it emulates Vance more accurately than the classic D&D magic system, but maybe not really WORSE either.

In any case, what I'm proposing wouldn't necessarily have level-based slots either, though that's also possible. Different rituals could also each require a different amount of time to cast, so some powers would be easier to refresh than others. A 30 second or 1 minute ritual would effectively represent an encounter power. A 1 or 2 hour one would be effectively daily.

Obviously this would diverge a good bit from the 4e power system too, in that there might not be a specific distribution of powers you'd have, 2 encounter, 2 utility, and 1 daily for instance. You might instead choose 2 dailies, 1 utility, and no encounter powers (or whatever). That would require some sort of 'slots' or at least careful DM time management. I'd go for slots personally. OTOH this is all obviated if you also use the idea of augments. In that case every power could be in all three flavors and you just spend 'vitality' to achieve the level of effect you desire.

 

[Garthanos]

OTOH this is all obviated if you also use the idea of augments. In that case every power could be in all three flavors and you just spend 'vitality' to achieve the level of effect you desire.

Yeh that is probably a development direction I can be excited about... lets get a better name. Gambits isn't terrible or even Performance Techniques... they describe how you perform the Feat of Magic or Feat of Physical Prowess

 

[Garthanos]

Oh and yes I agree as far as emulating actual Vancian 4E is as close as any edition.

 

[Tony Vargas]

WELL, remember, the ACTUAL magic system of The Dying Earth is NOT the D&D magic system. Vance never talked about 'levels' or anything like that. While there was a passage somewhere that hinted that some spells might be more difficult to memorize, there wasn't any statement that this resulted in a decrease in overall number of spells.

I remember something about that one, so it must have been Mizirian the Magician, lesser or greater spells, he could manage 6 of the former or 4 of the latter, IIRC.

Each wizard first of all knew certain spells, and they generally didn't share willingly. Secondly each one varied in his ability to memorize. Some could hold but one or two spells in memory, others a dozen. It is equally likely it just meant some were out of the grasp of lesser casters, or they might miscast them (a distinct danger in his stories).

Nod. Magic being dangerous to the caster rarely creeps into D&D.

4e wizards are actually not a BAD model of Vancian wizards.

1-4 dailies plus a few daily utilities is a lot closer to the number of spells Vance's magicians could memorize, and they didn't seem to memorize the same one two or more times like D&D wizards often would. OTOH, at-wills seem right out.

I don't recall any at-will powers that Vance described, but many wizards did have captive magical beings that could perform certain magical tasks for them on command.

Or magic items. Or items of ancient technology. Or cultivate magical plants, for that matter.

Beyond that wizards tended to spend some time memorizing a selected list of spells, but its not clear that all of them required the same time, so you COULD consider encounter powers to be the 'easier' spells. I don't think it emulates Vance more accurately than the classic D&D magic system, but maybe not really WORSE either.

Also memorizing a few 'easy' spells each encounter doesn't seem like a huge deviation compared to memorizing dozens like a high-level magic-user.

 

[Garthanos]

In any event what a wonderful thread about improving Martial Practices this has become /sarcasm

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In any event what a wonderful thread about improving Martial Practices this has become /sarcasm

Well, I think this all applies there too. I mean consider a fighter. He does his 'disciplines' and is thus granted exploits of various types. He can then use them with greater or lesser amounts of 'force' and they might take different amounts of time. There could be some systematic differences, typically more or less time required, etc. The disciplines could also include an unprepared aspect that acts like a utility, so you can spend a couple minutes getting good and ready, and then leap 200' across a chasm.

 

[Garthanos]

At some level having more elaborate skill definitions that talk about what you can accomplish with more protracted use or with better tools can cover some of what MP seem to be doing currently.

 

[Garthanos]

so you can spend a couple minutes getting good and ready, and then leap 200' across a chasm.

Or find just the right spot and shout so you are heard clear on the other side of the city...

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

At some level having more elaborate skill definitions that talk about what you can accomplish with more protracted use or with better tools can cover some of what MP seem to be doing currently.

Write up a couple examples.