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Martial Practices how can we fix them, systematically?
- Thread starter Garthanos
- Start date
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Right. I think I would rephrase that. 'All conflict takes place as part of a challenge'. That way there simply is no such thing as an isolated casual skill check. If characters choose to do something and there's some trivial aspect to it, about exactly how they do it, then they can simply propose some skill, knowledge, or resource that they apply to that task and it happens. If the character wants fancy new clothing for no particular reason, he can pay the 'fancy clothing' price and he gets it. If he's a skilled negotiator then he gets it at 10% off. Truthfully, in a 'scene framed' kind of game along the lines of what I would run, or something like what I think [MENTION=42582]pemerton[/MENTION] or [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION] would run there are going to be VERY few such situations! Almost any ends that the characters pursue are going to drive towards conflict and become entrained in challenge mechanics.
Manbearcat
Legend
Yup. Resupply and spend your coin. Done.
If we're spending time on it, it is going to be an Action Scene, fraught with conflict and something at stake.
The only time we'd roll dice for something outside of an Action Scene would be what is the equivalent of Cortex+'s Transition Scene. In this case it would be one of the following:
a) To resolve a simple action declaration regarding the acquisition of a resource/asset that can be leveraged in a later (but not immediately following) Action Scene (and it isn't an Action Scene itself to acquire it). For example, the simple deployment of Streetwise (or Word on the Street - Martial Practice), Lore, or a Ritual.
b) An Extended Rest Transition Scene in hostile territory (Group Perception). Basically we've got the equivalent of DW's "Make Camp" + "Take Watch" suite of moves happening and we need to find out if we've got conflict.
b) The PCs want to reframe their present situation so as to skip prospective Action Scenes to get to some other Action Scene. For instance, paying coin (or some other means) to the Boatman Charron on the River Styx to get to some place in the Abyss (or coin to a professional guide to safely navigate what would otherwise be a perilous journey)...or using a Travel Ritual.
Tony Vargas
Legend
One possibility might be to make it clear in each ritual practice that the benefit is being able to do something without a check or without as many or something - always clearly implying the stunt isn't impossible without the practice. Phrasing like "Instead of making a [skill] check...." The obvious example to me, because I've done this with NPC powers, is gaining a climb speed instead of making an athletics check. You can climb with athletics, having a climb speed for a little bit doesn't change that.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I'd argue there are no such things as transition scenes in which anything is at stake. If say a character is buying supplies for a trip they're going to take later, then the buying is either part of the SC, or its simply flavor that covers some roll later on during the trip SC that is resolved like "Yup, you remembered to buy enough water skins to pack extra water!" If Streetwise or whatnot is being deployed simply to set the scene, then why make a check? In fact the party can simply decide "Yeah, we sent the rogue to the bar to find out when the most bribeable gate guard is on duty." Its just something that sets up the next scene anyway, there's no reason (at least I am here presuming no reason) for it to NEED a check. Again, if it does, then it rolls itself into the 'bribing a gate guard SC' or something like that.
What would be the logic here? A random encounter? hehe. Either its immaterial or the GM is going to have the camp be attacked and then it obviously becomes a part of some kind of challenge. I guess I can see where you could say "well, its a combat challenge and this skill check is prefatory, so it isn't really an SC" but OTOH if its that critical, then make it a simple SC! There's plenty of scope for various checks to feed into a better arranged and more secure camp.
As in bypassing something else? Or as in choosing between several alternative challenges? I'd say if there's choice involved then let it be choice! If there's some sort of avoidance going on, then again either its just a choice, or there's some worthwhile conflict?
I feel like isolated checks are either things that shouldn't be random, or things that should have more substance.
Manbearcat
Legend
I used MHRP's Transition Scenes because those are brief interludes that are about (i) recovery, (ii) asset/resource establishment for a future scene, or (iii) framing/reframing a subsequent scene. Basically this happens if two things merge:
a) the fallout from the prior Action Scene doesn't demand an immediate knock-on Action Scene as an inevitable outgrowth
and
b) the players possess neither the means, nor the inclination, nor the fictional positioning to seek out recovery/augmentation/subsequent scene reframing.
(A) is extremely UNcommon (hence 4e's snowballing), so Transition Scene action declarations are extremely rare. Typically you're just framing Action Scene after Action Scene (and on and on), However, although rare, the two above do intersect every now and again. Let me see if I can put some meat on the bone here with play examples.
The Rogue in my last game had Secrets of the City (I covered that ability in my thread I started the other day).
One of the first things he would do (especially in the Heroic Tier but even on through P and E) would be to make this move at the outset of arriving in a new settlement. Most times this would be part of an existing Action Scene (to track down something or someone or to acquire something). However, there were 2 occasions where we were transitioning out of Perilous Journey scenes and the next Action Scene was pending the three players determining a course of action (typically one of three to four prospective Action Scenes to propel play forward). In those cases, the PC would be deploying Secrets of the City to (1) help inform their next move and (2) establish the contact network/gain the necessary intelligence to meet the demands of SotC's Trigger (thereby opening up the Utility's Effect for future Action Scenes).
On one occasion, it failed thus immediately propelling them into an Action Scene of my own choice and play snowballed from there.
Here you're talking about something that isn't terribly common (at least in the game's I've run) beyond Heroic Tier. Quick play examples:
Sea voyage (the same PC above was Mariner Theme) to discover the hideout of the scourge that framed him (former Naval Admiral dishonorably discharged wrongly). A meeting of the relevant players is taking place and there is no time for dilly dally (or getting lost...or shipwrecked...or swallowed by a sea monster...or accidentally entering the Fey Crossroads). That was an up-leveled (+2) C3 SC. They succeeded dramatically (no failures).
Accordingly, I evolved the fiction with them having arrived well ahead of schedule in a cove on the opposite side of the island that was so dangerous to navigate and so well-hidden that none but the most gifted (or mad) sailors would even attempt it. And a storm was coming in.
So they had an opportunity to dictate the terms of the engagement (lots of possibilities there). They chose to take an Extended Rest (they hadn't had one in a fair bit of time (probably stretching 4 SCs and 3 combats) so they were down a fair bit of Daily resources. Group Perception check (with the PC's crew counting as an additional unit). Failure could mean negative fictional positioning related to that storm (portending related moves from me against them in the conflict to come), an Action Scene related to that storm, or an Action Scene related to some other form of antagonism (Sahaguin attack from below!..Sea Monster!..a sentry from one of the assembling groups is out for a piss and he discovers the ship...Action Scene to nab him before he gets back and things go all Fiasco!).
They succeeded, so didn't matter (+2 Perception Bonus to all thanks to Theme and also Trained crew).
Epic Tier example from my last game. The first time the PCs encountered the River Styx boatman, Charon, it was a Skill Challenge (extremely significant one that snowballed into making up his backstory, making up the backstory of the Abyss's origin, and determining the ultimate antagonist - Dagon, the first Obyrth). Thereafter, it was a small matter of paying the boatman's fare. The latter bit served merely as a Transition Scene to move the PCs from one lair of the Abyss to another at their discretion.
** EDIT to put UN before "common" above.
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
OK, so here's my spinning on this. SotC is essentially a kind of "I'm in the loop" (IE I can do the substitution, SotC is 'armed'), or "I'm laying low" in which case it isn't (Maybe there are other flavorings of these 2 states, it doesn't really matter). This is just a choice. Outside of the possibility that something comes up during an existing action sequence that triggers it, the choice doesn't seem to require a check at all. Its simply a calculation by the player. Do I want to raise my profile and gain a big advantage on some potentially important skill checks, or do I just want to slide under the radar. Obviously the GM can leverage this decision in framing, and the likely consequences are probably readily apparent to the character (and should be to the player as well).
In other words this is IMHO where @Garthanos' idea of "you can just do it" works out great. SotC is just an ability you need Streetwise training to have, but if you have it, you just flip the switch and it changes your fictional positioning and the stakes that are in play. You might wait and choose to do it during an SC of course, but if the aim is to avoid the fictional positioning's downside, well, you might also just not have the right opportunity, because there still IS an 'in the fiction' requirement for SotC, you can't just say one moment "yeah, now I'm in the loop on stuff in this town" not unless you actually had a chance to say hang at some places, grease a few palms, get a gander at some things, etc.
Yeah, in my style of game I'd have just considered that they were good for the night. Or not, and then I'd run another action scene, but it would be one way or the other. Maybe whether it was a quiet night or not would depend on some further choice the players made, like if they camp on the ship its quiet, but if they ignore the signs of head hunters and camp on land, well...
Right, I'm just not sure why any check would be required in those later scenes. I'd think it would be pure narration unless one of the PCs decided not to pay or something...
I guess I've just become really systematic about this over the last few years. Its a challenge, or its diceless, there's just no such thing as dice outside of conflict. I guess about the only place I might bend that is say if you're all buffing up casting rituals prior to some action, maybe you need to make some checks to see if your Phantom Steeds can fly or not, etc. I'd still really rather not do it that way (and in fact I suspect it would be better to eschew that kind of design for rituals now that I think about it).
EDIT: Actually, I'll go further. The fact that 4e has a whole set of rules and ritual writeups that flat out say "If you fail the check, nothing is expended" (which is tantamount in most cases to 'try again') is plenty of indication that this sort of checking is not really something 4e should be doing.
So, I hereby propose that ritual effects (at least those that create ongoing effects) should be simply measured by the character's bonus with the key skill. No actual check should be required. The ritual always works, and its effects are consistent. If you want to make it be more potent, get assistance, or create an SC that deals with making a specially potent (and perhaps dangerous) form of the ritual.
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Manbearcat
Legend
Well, in this case, you're talking about design (which is the point of this thread I believe), so topical, as well as play procedures. However, I would say this on the design of Secret of the City:
If it is going to open up Arcana, History, and Religion as Streetwise checks with no prerequisite (in this case a prior successful Streetwise in the settlement), then it needs to be rationed at Encounter frequency rather than At-Will.
If you redesigned the power in your vision (and moved it from A-W to E), I would have no problem with it.
I'll include the procedure part of things with the below:
Here is my take on 4e Skill Challenge:
1) Framework-wise and procedurally, they are basically Cortex+ closed scene resolution. The PCs have a certain stress die (in SC's case, it always 3) and the obstacle/opposition has a certain stress die (from 4 to 6 to 8 to 10 to 12). Once one side is "stressed out", the other side achieves their goal and the losing side loses what is at stake.
2) From a technique and principle perspective, they are basically Powered By the Apocalypse (the closest analog being Dungeon World). Strike! rips this directly from PBtA (and, of course, 4e). In DW a move is triggered when a certain fictional positioning becomes manifest:
a) You act despite an imminent threat or suffer a calamity (Defy Danger)
b) You consult your accumulated knowledge about something (Spout Lore)
c) You have leverage on a GM Character and manipulate them (Parley)
d) You settle in to rest. Consume a ration (Make Camp which requires no roll). If you’re somewhere dangerous decide the watch order and Take Watch (another move).
Just like 4e, Dungeon World's GMs must "fill their (the PCs) lives with adventure" and "think dangerous". The 4e analog is "go to the action." Technique-wise GMs in both games (and in Strike!) are only having the PC roll the dice if something interesting/dangerous will result from failure. You roll dice and fail, something is happening. The situation is changing. That is fundamental to play (Failure, or success with cost/setback/hard choice in PBtA, is primarily how play/fiction snowballs).
So, if the players take an Extended Rest under conflict-neutral, non-dangerous circumstances (which would trigger "Make Camp" if in the wild but no danger is present, or the "Recover" move where you're in comfort and safety, in DW), they don't roll dice. They just get it. That is the case a fair bit of the time. However, if there is danger or conflict lurking, then we're rolling some dice to find out what happens. In 4e, if things go wrong we go right to an Action Scene. In DW (and Strike!), I make a move that the characters won't like (but the players will because danger and adventure are the point of play!) and play snowballs from there!
No check made. Merely action declaration "Take us to the 89th Layer...the shore of the Shadowsea where Dagon rules from the depths" and coin spent from the players level -1 coin pool. They were here...now they are there...with all potential Action Scenes in between transitioned. That is why I compare it to Cortex+ Transition Scene mechanics. Brief interlude, quick action declaration, whatever resolution is required (in this case coin spent) and we transition directly to the next Action Scene.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I see what you mean. Yes, it probably warrants encounter frequency of use, unless you were to start playing with advantages and offsetting disadvantages, which pretty much goes against 4e's design theory, probably for very good reasons IME.
This whole concept is definitely giving me some ideas that I can use in my own game design.
Ah, OK. I imagined some implied check there. I guess because you had talked about interstitial checks at one point. I guess DMG2 does call these kinds of things 'vignettes' doesn't it.
Garthanos
Arcadian Knight
Drop into a trance state pump up spending healing surge for a short bit and boom get a nice reliable climb speed OR brachiation speed through tree tops / aka tree top runner speed from anime OR swimming speed.
I do think that has a certain measure of awesome... I do think really also has to exceed the realm of strictly possible too... Like Gilgamesh did.
