D&D 5E D&D is a drag race, think of climbing as a cantrip, and the rogue would be better at lock picking if it could only pick a few locks per day.

[overgeeked]

No not really. Spider Climb definitely does let you do more than Athletics for a 2nd level spellslot AND concentration. I just think that usually there isn't that much extra capability gained to justify the resources. Certainly not enough to justify the whole "casters can do everything and martials can't do anything" gist of this thread.

Climb speed (normal climbing is 1/2 speed), hands free (normal climbing requires your hands), and upside down (yeah) is more than worth it. A spell slot to do the physically impossible for one hour. Yeah, that’s worth it. And definitely shows the point of the thread. Literally does what anyone else can do only wildly better for a minor cost. Yes, when you get all your magic back after a nap, a 2nd-level spell slot is a minor cost.

 

[MichaelSomething]

Ah. The “Yeah, well, we house rule it” response. Sure.

Yet people ignored my thread welcoming it...

 

[CreamCloud0]

IMO i think the real equivilant for 'spider climb' for martials should be them having an actual regular innate climb speed, free to use all day long in any circumstance, none of this make an athletics check to climb the wall, no, you are a hero strong in body, you scale 10 walls before breakfast.

but here's the thing, a martial climb speed shouldn't be judged in utility against spider climb, or at least not JUST against spider climb, it needs to be judged in utility against having spider climb and a half dozen other 2nd level spells that the caster could ALSO use their slot for instead, is that singular climb speed capability equal in utility against having the choice of using any of spider climb, crown of madness, enhance ability, misty step or scorching ray.

 

[Oofta]

Doors fall into a weird space as DnD challenges - if someone in the party has lockpicks and knows how to use them, doors are trivial an therefore boring.

If no one does than maybe,maybe the wizard (if you have one) prepared knock instead of one of the many probably-more-useful spells they know and you spend a spell slot and move on. It's barely an easy encounter but it cost you something.

If no one has knock (and what known-spells caster would ever take it?) then the Door Of Dread becomes the most challenging encounter the party will face in the entire campaign, and we begin Structural Engineering Amateur Hour, possibly resulting in death of two pc's (slightly more likely than getting through the Completely Mundane Wooden of Doom with no injuries).

Anywho yeah a good skill challenge system would be nice.

I use locks where it makes sense for there to be locks, not because it necessarily adds a significant obstacle. If I want it to be an obstacle it will be during a running combat or a chase scene where every second counts. But sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and a lock is just there to keep the average Joe out.

There's the start of a skill challenge system with the chase rules, I hope they expand on it with 5E24.

 

[Oofta]

Martials can easily do all this stuff, they just need to be creative and have a DM who allows Martial characters to do cool stuff too.

• Tie a rope to a javelin, make an attack roll, then scurry across.
• Athletics can easily match misty step (at least outside combat where opportunity attacks aren't a concern). Can't beat the Jump spell, but Ring of Jumping is cheap and easy to get (takes attunement but that's ok at low levels)
• Athletics beats spider climb all day long due to achieving the same thing with no resources required
• I've literally never seen anyone ever cast Sending. I have frequently seen Sending Stones used though, which anyone can use
• Unless it's an entire underwater adventure, just hold your breath and swim, you'll be fine. If it's a full adventure underwater, there will be some other plot method for the party to breath, or else the adventure stops before it starts.

There are many times when DMs set up obstacles that they know the wizard can bypass because they want the wizard to feel cool. Need to cast teleport because the McGuffin is halfway around the world? Good thing you have a wizard! Except it was the DM who decided that the McGuffin was halfway around the world instead of down the block in the first place. It gives the illusion that the teleport spell is powerful when it's only powerful because of the fiction that the DM has total control over.

Which doesn't mean that magic can't be cool and useful. It can be, it's part of the fun of the game as a player to figure out how to use options at your disposal to overcome obstacles. But if an obstacle can only be overcome with magic (e.g. underwater adventure), then the magic will be provided if a character doesn't already have it.

 

[Oofta]

Yes for all these. As long as your referee has magic shops for the ring.

Not even close.

“SPIDER CLIMB
2nd-level transmutation

Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a drop of bitumen and a spider)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour

Until the spell ends, one willing creature you touch gains the ability to move up, down, and across vertical surfaces and upside down along ceilings, while leaving its hands free. The target also gains a climbing speed equal to its walking speed.”

For one hour you have upside down, hands free, climbing speed. Athletics cannot get anywhere close to that. It’s like saying a mountain climber beats Spider-Man at climbing.

Pretty much.

I've just got to say that I don't remember the last time I've seen anyone cast spider climb. I've seen a PC with a magic item that lets them do it, that's it. One of those things that sound cool but is such a low priority and relatively minimal benefit it never gets used.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Climb speed (normal climbing is 1/2 speed), hands free (normal climbing requires your hands), and upside down (yeah) is more than worth it. A spell slot to do the physically impossible for one hour. Yeah, that’s worth it. And definitely shows the point of the thread. Literally does what anyone else can do only wildly better for a minor cost. Yes, when you get all your magic back after a nap, a 2nd-level spell slot is a minor cost.

Honestly, I think this last bit is where D&D really started to have trouble with magic vs. mundane. I recall (back in pre-3E* vancian casting days) when a second level spell expenditure didn't feel minor. Not sure if that was because we spent more time in levels ~1-6 or because there was more consequence to going and napping, but I remember Invisibility and Knock and Spider Climb at 2nd level feeling more 'hefty' of an expenditure. *where custom scrolls and wands are easy to acquire and craft

I've just got to say that I don't remember the last time I've seen anyone cast spider climb. I've seen a PC with a magic item that lets them do it, that's it. One of those things that sound cool but is such a low priority and relatively minimal benefit it never gets used.

There are a lot more climbing/flying races (/familiars and mage hands) these days. However, I also think there are just fewer people in dungeons with 'pull the level on the other side of the hazardous pit to get to the next corridor' style challenges. So even if Spider Climb's benefits over skill-based climbing were significant, there probably isn't enough call for it to make preparing for it that worthwhile.

 

[Kaiyanwang]

Honestly, I think this last bit is where D&D really started to have trouble with magic vs. mundane. I recall (back in pre-3E* vancian casting days) when a second level spell expenditure didn't feel minor. Not sure if that was because we spent more time in levels ~1-6 or because there was more consequence to going and napping, but I remember Invisibility and Knock and Spider Climb at 2nd level feeling more 'hefty' of an expenditure. *where custom scrolls and wands are easy to acquire and craft

There are a lot more climbing/flying races (/familiars and mage hands) these days. However, I also think there are just fewer people in dungeons with 'pull the level on the other side of the hazardous pit to get to the next corridor' style challenges. So even if Spider Climb's benefits over skill-based climbing were significant, there probably isn't enough call for it to make preparing for it that worthwhile.

In BECMI and AD&D 2e, a 2nd level MU/Wizard has 2 lvl 1 spell slots. In 3e, due to the bonus intelligence, the Wizard has 3, plus 1 if specialized.
At level 6th, a BECMI MU has 3 lvl1, 2 lvl2, and 2 lvl 3 slots. The AD&D 2e has one additional level 1 slot. In 3e, it's 4 3 3, plus one additional per level (!) if specialized.
I frankly prefer the 3e way, because while I despise at-will spells unless the class is designed specifically for that (3e Warlock), there should be a sweet spot between careful use and lack of resources.
Said this, specifically addressing your post, it appears that you are entirely correct in your memory because some slots almost doubled if a specialist is involved vs a normal MU.

Edit: I realized I didn't count the 5e Wizard. For comparison, a 2nd level 5eWiz has 3 1st level spells, and a 6th level one has a 4 3 3.

 

[CreamCloud0]

passive/innate abilities i think ALL martials should have in some quantity

-increased base movement (and a bonus action 'sprint' action that adds half your usual movespeed)
-climb and swim speeds
-enhanced jump distance
-better hit die healing (4e healing surges) and 'recover' action to spend one as an action
-more skill proficiencies (and things to do with them)
-expertise
-reliable talent
-fighting styles (multiple)
-improved unarmed attack
-'guard' bonus action and 'block' reaction, which adds your PB to your AC for the round/attack respectively (mutually exclusive actions) (maybe require shield or light weapon???)
-tool proficiencies (now with actual uses!)
-ASI are 'feat and +1'
-'hustle' action/bonus action? to move in up the iniative