D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Gammadoodler]

And their ability to do something has no bearing on their ability to recognize its a consistent part of their reality.

I actually do know how to fly a plane and have done so myself, but even if I didn't, I don't need that knowledge and experience to know planes exist and aren't some supernatural thingamajig.

Likewise, unless we're talking a low magic setting where magic is both low key and relatively obscure (which is not what DND is) your average person doesn't need to be a wizard to recognize magic as a thing. But even those low magic settings, the apparent supernatural nature of it only extends as far as ones direct knowledge of magic does.

A Muggle in Harry Potter would see magic as reality warping at first, but given enough time and exposure its just reality, because of course it is. The Muggles ignorance of the existence of such things in their reality does not put those things outside the bounds of reality.

Not all that different from the trope of modern technology being effectively magic to people from earlier ages if you could travel back in time. An ancient Egyptian would have no context or even language to begin to describe a cell phone, nevermind the intracacies of how one works, but that doesn't make the cell phone supernatural.

Things do not cease to warp reality simply because they exist within it.

Technology is not exempt from the capacity to warp reality.

More than any of that it's not binary. It's a matter of scope and degree.

Even with continuous exposure to Harry Potter magic, nonstop, their entire lives, Maggie's would recognize that wizards, on average, have far broader scope to manipulate reality to a far greater degree.
And high-level wizards in Harry Potter (whatever that means) even moreso.

It seems like your bar for "reality warping magic" is "literally rewrite everything that exists everywhere in a setting".

My bar is significantly lower than that.

 

[Emberashh]

every character can improvise.

But not every character has the room to improvise.

Its kind of the same sort of iffy logic in saying that casters can also go in and grapple an enemy.

They can, but even if your caster is protected enough in melee what purpose would it serve wasting your actions on a grapple?

Likewise, if you have all these spiffy spells that you don't have to make a check to cast, why burn a turn improvising something else that isn't going to be guaranteed to be a more worthwhile use of the turn than one of your bazillion spells?

Things do not cease to warp reality simply because they exist within it.

Of course, because they weren't warping it to begin with.

on average, have far broader scope to manipulate reality to a far greater degree.

Manipulation isn't the same thing as warping.

Manipulation is saying that within these rules, I can do U, V, and W, and by doing such and such, I can now do X, Y, and Z.

Warping is saying that I can make new rules, and say that I can now do A, B, and Fish, and when I do raspberry I can do gorgoblatz 7 times.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

You put something in the game, particularly in the core book, and players will expect it to available for use, and irritated at the GM if they ban it. Much easier, if deeply unfair, for it to just not exist.

At this point, I think most mythic martial fans wouldn't care if it was non-core and in a seperate book or in an unearthed arcana type publication and had a bunch of red labels on it saying "this is really really not core. ask your DM before you can use this".

I know some people even object to this (Bo9S cough cough). But "You can't have something in an optional book if i don't want it" is not a good look.

 

[OldSchoolGamerGirl]

But not every character has the room to improvise.

yeah the caster has MORE room, they have spell options to use to improvise the martials never will

Its kind of the same sort of iffy logic in saying that casters can also go in and grapple an enemy.

play a hexblade warlock or a armor artificer and you will watch them go for grapple if they want.

They can, but even if your caster is protected enough in melee what purpose would it serve wasting your actions on a grapple?

wait it's a waste for a caster to grapple but a good option for a fighter?!?! you just proved my point better then I can.
You look at an action and the caster has so many better options you can't even imagine someone 'wasteing' an action on it... but your fighter or barbarian you think "yeah, thats good or better then my other options"... this is why martials need more options so when you look at there options and caster options it's not two different games.

Likewise, if you have all these spiffy spells that you don't have to make a check to cast, why burn a turn improvising something else that isn't going to be guaranteed to be a more worthwhile use of the turn than one of your bazillion spells?

this right here is the best casters rule martials drool argument I have ever read

 

[Micah Sweet]

At this point, I think most mythic martial fans wouldn't care if it was non-core and in a seperate book or in an unearthed arcana type publication and had a bunch of red labels on it saying "this is really really not core. ask your DM before you can use this".

I know some people even object to this (Bo9S cough cough). But "You can't have something in an optional book if i don't want it" is not a good look.

Agreed, but that doesn't stop some folks, and they've had WotC's ear for over 20 years now.

 

[Vaalingrade]

"Jut improvise" is not an answer to an issue with the system.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

"Jut improvise" is not an answer to an issue with the system.

especially when you then go on to admit that anything you could improvise will still be flat out worse then anything a caster can do. like, sheesh, way to meteor swarm your own argument...

 

[Gammadoodler]

But not every character has the room to improvise.

Its kind of the same sort of iffy logic in saying that casters can also go in and grapple an enemy.

They can, but even if your caster is protected enough in melee what purpose would it serve wasting your actions on a grapple?

Likewise, if you have all these spiffy spells that you don't have to make a check to cast, why burn a turn improvising something else that isn't going to be guaranteed to be a more worthwhile use of the turn than one of your bazillion spells?



Of course, because they weren't warping it to begin with.



Manipulation isn't the same thing as warping.

Manipulation is saying that within these rules, I can do U, V, and W, and by doing such and such, I can now do X, Y, and Z.

Warping is saying that I can make new rules, and say that I can now do A, B, and Fish, and when I do raspberry I can do gorgoblatz 7 times.

"Manipulate" means to handle, alter, edit, change, or control. It has no tether to operating within a ruleset.

"Warp" means to twist or bend.

Thank you for providing your definition of warp. You have confirmed my suspicions that your bar for "reality warping" and mine are very far apart.

 

[bert1001 fka bert1000]

Agreed, but that doesn't stop some folks, and they've had WotC's ear for over 20 years now.

Yeah I don't pretend to know the politics. It's strange though. I could be wrong but I really doubt that WotC would lose customers from a optional, non-core mythic martial class and there is potential to add more people that don't play D&D because of this. Not sure why this segment has so much pull. I don't think it is the majority but I could be wrong. I would be super surprised if causual fans objected and, in fact, would like the mythic martial if it was an option (they just aren't going to advocate for it as they don't think about it that much).

 

[Emberashh]

yeah the caster has MORE room, they have spell options to use to improvise the martials never will

Well thats not what Im talking about. If you're a caster and your choice is to either cast Wall of Force or Improvise some action, why would you choose to improvise?

Martials have a lot more room in their toolbox to spend actions on improvising something to get ahead. Casters don't, because their spells are too valuable.

wait it's a waste for a caster to grapple but a good option for a fighter?!?! you just proved my point better then I can.

It is a team game after all. Casters going out of their way to trod all over what Martials can do, just to prove they can, isn't being a team player.

You're not wrong that Martials need more explicit options, but you're conflating into this what is essentially a really bad player with a really bad attitude. Its one thing for Gish types to be doing martial things (the entire point is they can do both after all), but if you're just a bone standard Abjuration Wizard and you're hopping into melee to grapple just to go "SEE YOU MARTIALS ARE USELESS" thats just bad form.

That, of course, isn't what you're trying to say happens or would happen, but that sort of player is what you're describing by asserting casters can waste turns on grappling.

Its a team game, and regardless of intra-character balance players aren't in a competition to be the person that solves the problem or does all the cool stuff.

Way too much of the martial/caster issue is people telegraphing that theres players out there that do nothing but hog the spotlight every chance they get even when they don't have to (ie, when the martial is standing there and can grapple, and the caster decides to say screw that players fun and does it themselves because reasons and not because it actually makes any sense for them to do that).

"Jut improvise" is not an answer to an issue with the system.

But it is a valid part of the system and one thats underused for various reasons, which is where Id say the problem is.

especially when you then go on to admit that anything you could improvise will still be flat out worse then anything a caster can do.

Its not a competition folks. People don't like when I have to repeat that mantra, but it doesn't stop it being the truth.

Relative to what else a Martial can do, improvising an action is a good use of their economy. Not so for Casters, and as iterated already, if a Caster is going out of their way to trod on the Martial, no amount of intra-class disparity changes that that is an attitude problem first and foremost.

"Manipulate" means to handle, alter, edit, change, or control. It has no tether to operating within a ruleset.

"Warp" means to twist or bend.

Thank you for providing your definition of warp. You have confirmed my suspicions that your bar for "reality warping" and mine are very far apart.

I just asked ChatGPT and it agrees with me

Can you explain why warping reality is not the same thing as manipulating reality

Certainly! Warping reality and manipulating reality are distinct concepts with different implications.

Manipulating reality typically refers to the ability to control or change elements of the existing reality within certain boundaries. It involves exerting influence over various aspects of the world, such as physical objects, living beings, or natural phenomena, using some form of power or ability. Manipulation implies a degree of control or alteration within the existing framework of reality.

On the other hand, warping reality goes beyond mere manipulation. It involves fundamentally distorting or reshaping the fabric of reality itself, often disregarding the established laws of nature or physics. This concept implies a profound and pervasive alteration of the very nature of reality, usually in ways that are inconsistent with our current understanding of the world. Warping reality often allows for the creation of new rules or the bending of existing rules to achieve desired outcomes.

In essence, manipulating reality involves working within the established rules and limitations of the existing reality to achieve specific effects, while warping reality implies a more radical transformation of the fundamental nature of reality itself, resulting in significant and often unpredictable changes.

It's worth noting that the idea of warping reality is more commonly found in science fiction, fantasy, or speculative contexts, where characters possess extraordinary powers or abilities that can reshape the world around them. In the real world, our understanding of reality is based on scientific principles and empirical observations, and while we can manipulate certain aspects of reality through technology or other means, we have not discovered any means to truly warp reality in the way often depicted in fiction.