D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Minigiant]

Puts a lot of wonder into the guy who threw it through his throat though. And that's the point.

It's not the king of devils' story, it's the guys charged with ending him.

The wonder is partly based on the obstacles and how they are overcome.

Trivalizing the Devil King by killing him with a pencil makes the Devil Look weaker and weakened your legend.
Now if its the final blow after all else is spent and broken, it can be epic.
But I don't like the idea of the hero picking a stick off the floor and decimating Hell with it. It make Hell look weak.

 

[HammerMan]

In fairness, that was magic. The pencil disappeared.

View attachment 287385

What a magic trick

 

[HammerMan]

Trivalizing the Devil King by killing him with a pencil makes the Devil Look weaker and weakened your legend.

Hard disagree
Saying “he killed him with a bleeping pencil” says more about the warrior in my mind.
Riddick joker John wick all have these kinds of feats. So too does bullseye ultimate Hawkeye (you never miss and I never loose…if you know you know)

 

[Clint_L]

Double digit level. Even 11th. And no, I do not buy that fighters are dealing that much damage. There's just no way they can. At best, the absolute best, a fighter can do would be a 2d6 weapon, with something like GWF and a 20 Strength. That's as good as it gets. That's 27 damage per hit. Oh, wait, sorry, add another d8 for Battlemaster maneuvers. So, 35 damage on a hit is the absolute top.

At the absolute top end, there's 5 attacks for 175 points of damage. 350 if he action surges. So, that is the absolute best damage a fighter can do.

A wizard can do that at 5th level. Fireball hits 10 targets for 35 points each. Poof. The absolute pinacle of damage that a fighter can do is equal to what a wizard can do at 5th level.

It doesn't have to be "round after round". There's only a limited number of rounds in an adventuring day because the baddies die.

Again, as I said earlier. Track it. Actually do the math. Track your next 20 rounds of combat. Area attacks deal total damage, not single, so, it's not fair to compare a single target - you have to talk about total damage. I'll bet you dollars to donuts that your casters are number 1. Every time.

I mean, why stop at 10 targets? A 20" radius sphere could fit a LOT of tiny creatures, so if we are making an argument around the hypothetical damage a character with access to fireball could do, we could get it much higher. But what is the point? That against a ton of weak opponents in a confined space fireball is incredibly powerful? You'll get no argument from me!

CritRoleStats actually does track the damage done by every character on Critical Role:

Campaign 1 (115 games, levels 7-20)
1. Barbarian/Fighter (Grog): 10, 038
2. Rogue/Paladin (Vax): 9, 183
3. Ranger/Rogue (Vex): 8, 514
4. Fighter (Gunslinger home-brew variant) (Percy): 8, 126
5. Druid (Keyleth): 6, 126
6. Bard (Scanlan): 3, 334

Campaign 2 (141 games, levels 2-17)
1. Monk (Beu): 5, 965
2. Warlock/Paladin (Fjord): 5, 614
3. Rogue/Wizard (Nott/Veth): 5, 583
4. Wizard (Caleb): 5, 281
5. Barbarian (Yasha): 4, 750 (note 32 fewer games)
6. Cleric (Jester): 3, 648

Campaign 3 (51 games until party split, levels 1-7)
1. Barbarian (Ashton): 1, 462
2. Fighter (Orym): 1, 392
3. Sorcerer (Imogen): 1379
4. Blood Hunter (home-brew class; similar to fighter) (Chetney): 1, 222 (note 6 fewer games)
5. Druid (Fearne): 858
6. Warlock/Sorcerer (Laudna): 762
7. Cleric (Fresh Cut Grass): 567

 

[Minigiant]

Hard disagree
Saying “he killed him with a bleeping pencil” says more about the warrior in my mind.
Riddick joker John wick all have these kinds of feats. So too does bullseye ultimate Hawkeye (you never miss and I never loose…if you know you know)

It is often not on a major or even minor villain.

Wick, Joker, and Riddick did it to nameless mooks.

Is the King of All Devils a nameless 3HD mook?

 

[HammerMan]

It is often not on a major or even minor villain.

Wick, Joker, and Riddick did it to nameless mooks.

Is the King of All Devils a nameless 3HD mook?

To my epic level fighter he is just another notch on his belt

I will put an exception for true divinity and rare unique creatures (tarasque) but not devil lords and avatars

BUT even then it can’t just be “a magic weapon” then it has to be a god killer weapon.

 

[Emberashh]

Could be said that the effect killing such a character with a pencil would have on the narrative is dependent on how that character was portrayed regardless of his name.

If that King is depicted as a mighty warrior god who can take on entire legions of Angels and Nephillim by himself, yeah killing with a pencil kind of robs him of that allure in an unsatisfactory way.

But if said King is depicted as a smarmy weakling, a Grima Wormtongue but less sexy, then slaying them with a pencil is pretty apropos.

 

[HammerMan]

If that King is depicted as a mighty warrior god who can take on entire legions of Angels and Nephillim by himself, yeah killing with a pencil kind of robs him of that allure in an unsatisfactory way.

Even more hard disagree

He waded through warriors with ease… but the epic warrior “Galen” killed him with a pencils is a myth in the making.

 

[Incenjucar]

An enemy that cannot be killed by a fighter with a normal sword perhaps should not killed by a spellcaster with a normal spell, either.

 

[Emberashh]

Even more hard disagree

He waded through warriors with ease… but the epic warrior “Galen” killed him with a pencils is a myth in the making.

Sure if we assume Galen is an NPC that sits in the background of the games lore.

Not so much if they're a PC who trivializes a character that was telegraphed as a giant CGI fight to climax on.

And yes, that does mean that Casters often being able to do precisely that is bad and shouldn't be the case.

This is why it really isn't a good idea to just jack up Martials trying to chase what Casters do, because what Casters do for the game isn't good and we shouldn't be doubling down on it.