D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Chaosmancer]

The wonder is partly based on the obstacles and how they are overcome.

Trivalizing the Devil King by killing him with a pencil makes the Devil Look weaker and weakened your legend.
Now if its the final blow after all else is spent and broken, it can be epic.
But I don't like the idea of the hero picking a stick off the floor and decimating Hell with it. It make Hell look weak.

Only if you don't contextualize it correctly. Doom Slayer took on Hell with perfectly mundane guns. Doesn't make Hell look weak, it makes the Doom Slayer look incredible.

 

[Minigiant]

Nope, that is a DnDism.

Greek Gods? Could be hurt by mundane weapons.
Norse Gods? Could be hurt by mundane weapons.
Chinese immortals and Japanese Kami? Could be hurt by mundane weapons.
Celtic Gods? Could be hurt by mundane weapons.

We don't NEED to have them being immune to mundane weapons. We do because we feel like that makes them scarier and harder to kill.

You act as if this is one hit, one kill.

Of course there's a fight. There's obstacles along the way to get to the king.

But if the show is all about the magic sword any chump can use and not an ultimate badass that can stomp monsters with an unbent paper clip, I'm not there for it.

I said kill them. I'm all for warriors using improved attacks with terrain, rocks, and garbage off the floor to widdle down HP.

But an RPG that supports a fighter grabbing a random knife and shield for the village blacksmith and jumping into a portal to Hell to kill a named Devil Prince has to be built from the ground up. Only 4e go even close to supporting that with an official houserule.

That's a whole game rework. Doable but it's a lot of work.

 

[Minigiant]

Only if you don't contextualize it correctly. Doom Slayer took on Hell with perfectly mundane guns. Doesn't make Hell look weak, it makes the Doom Slayer look incredible.

Assualt rifles and machine guns are high tech in base D&D. Equal to magic items.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But the man beat the magic dragon with the dragon's magical tooth.

Who said the tooth was magical?

I'm not saying a level 15th fighter shouldn't be deadly even with a common sword.
I'm saying a level 15th fighter fighting a CR 16 18HD 200HP+ blue dragon should die fighting it with only a 1d8 damage nonmagical longsword in a straight brawl.

And I disagree. Because requiring the fighter to have a special weapon or die means that the fighter isn't good enough. That's the entire point. Because non-martials can win on their own merits. So requiring an external power to be good enough simply says that they are not good enough.

In fact, isn't that often the ENTIRE story behind magical weapons? A weapon that fights for the warrior is seen as a crutch? The power was in you all along, not the weapon? These things are popular tropes for a reason, because "I'm good, but I am nothing without my sword" is terrible.

 

[HammerMan]

Assualt rifles and machine guns are high tech in base D&D. Equal to magic items.

You do realize DMG lists modern and even future sci fi guns. And none count as magic.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I said kill them. I'm all for warriors using improved attacks with terrain, rocks, and garbage off the floor to widdle down HP.

But an RPG that supports a fighter grabbing a random knife and shield for the village blacksmith and jumping into a portal to Hell to kill a named Devil Prince has to be built from the ground up. Only 4e go even close to supporting that with an official houserule.

That's a whole game rework. Doable but it's a lot of work.

]Big monsters don't have dumb anti-martial limiters that make the game about the golf bag of weapons and about the warrior'

Not a lot of work.

The work is breaking the traditional ostensibly hidden anti-martial bias that keeps this from being a thing and replace the current 'simpler, except for magic' concept with a better design philosophy.

 

[Chaosmancer]

As Hussar pointed out very few wizard spells use attack rolls. Almost everything a fighter does uses attack rolls - including the thing they do most often. Attack.

Wizards are usually in the back ranks, therefore less likely to be attacked anyway.

Ergo. On both counts Fighters benefit most from their pet mage casting blindness on the foe. For the wizard it just delays the inevitable.

Is what the wizard does with saves weaker than the fighters attacks? Not really. Can the wizard still mash the blinded enemy with cantrips... absolutely. Often for similar damage to what the fighter can do. Also, does the enemy get disadvantage on dodging dex saves because they are blind? (honestly not sure about that one)

 

[Chaosmancer]

Assualt rifles and machine guns are high tech in base D&D. Equal to magic items.

No they aren't. They are in the DMG as mundane weapons.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Assualt rifles and machine guns are high tech in base D&D. Equal to magic items.

regardless of how dnd treats them, in the context of doom they're regular, mundane weapons.
hell, canonically speaking he's literally better off just using his fists then using his guns - he just likes shooting things.

 

[Minigiant]

Who said the tooth was magical?

It came from a magic creature

You do realize DMG lists modern and even future sci fi guns. And none count as magic.

I mean in the Clark's 3rd laws sense
An assault weapon is high tech in D&D.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

An assault rifle in FR narratively the same as a magic weapon.

And I disagree. Because requiring the fighter to have a special weapon or die means that the fighter isn't good enough. That's the entire point. Because non-martials can win on their own merits. So requiring an external power to be good enough simply says that they are not good enough.

In fact, isn't that often the ENTIRE story behind magical weapons? A weapon that fights for the warrior is seen as a crutch? The power was in you all along, not the weapon? These things are popular tropes for a reason, because "I'm good, but I am nothing without my sword" is terrible.

The warrior is not nothing. They still clobber foes ofa lower tier. But equal tier combat require equal tier equipment.

You don't bring a knife to a gunfight.

The real issue is the limiter isn't equally placed on magic spells and primary spellcaster.

My whole point is you would have to remake the whole edition (except 4e) to do what we all want.
Not doing that will just lead to disappointment.