D&D 5E Martials should just get free feats

[EzekielRaiden]

Assuming maximum dex on the Wizard (which is a big assumption)

No, it's not. Not at level 17+. You have four ASIs at that level. Int would be maxed out by level 8. Dex by level 16. At max level, you even have a free feat to play with (or get more Con.) If you qualify, Elven Accuracy is even better.

Not "at most". Using only class abilities and no feats "at most" the tanky fighter will put out 44 damage (4d8+28) average if all hit. The wizard with 4d10 is doing 22 or half of that.

Uh...where is this +28 coming from, exactly? You get +5 from stats, giving +20 only at level 20. We aren't assuming any bonuses, and a +2 magic weapon would absolutely be a bonus. If the Fighter is getting a +2 magic weapon, the Wizard should absolutely be getting a +2 magic focus (presumably the arcane grimoire), which means we'd need to start accounting for accuracy to properly reflect the differences.

How many creatures CR 15 or higher have weak wisdom saves?

Is that actually relevant to the criticism? You're the one who brought up toll the dead in the first place. I was perfectly happy sticking with fire bolt, since it actually can crit (unlike a saving-throw-based spell.)

64%, even if it is true, is less than 100%

It's still much, much, much too high. Your claim was less than 40%. It's not, and my numbers conclusively prove that. It's easily two-thirds, even if you AREN'T specialized in damage-dealing. If you are, the gap disappears almost completely; imagine if I had instead looked at Evoker or War Mage!

A Wizard doing two thirds to four fifths of the baseline damage of the Fighter, while having miles and miles better non-combat ability, is not acceptable. Period. Add onto that a Bladesinger that actually outclasses the Fighter at net defensive ability, and what exactly is the Fighter supposed to be bringing? The one thing it's good at, it's only very slightly better than the guy who can rewrite reality once a day!

People started talking about spell mastery, which is 18th level and you are splitting hairs here.

So it's totally fine to start splitting hairs about CRs and which saves are commonly good, but not fine to split hairs about other things? Your double standard is showing.

A Bladesinger concentrating on Shadowblade with no temp hps will not last two rounds in melee against most difficult foes she will face and her shadowblade often won't last one round due to crappy concentration saves. Also Shadow Blade and Bladesong are both a Bonus Action.

While the bonus action thing is fair, you can start Bladesong first and then bring the blade in after. The Concentration thing is simply wrong, however. Bladesong gives +Int to Concentration saves. You can potentially have some of the best in the business, especially with Custom Lineage (which is better than almost all other options for Wizards.) And that's before factoring in the protective bonuses from Song of Defense (which I had not mentioned because that requires, effectively, casting spells--but which, by its wording, does let you reduce the DC of Concentration saves, because it reduces the damage before it's actually dealt to you, albeit at the cost of your reaction.)

To reiterate the original claim I disagreed with was that a Wizard can be 95% of the tankability of a fighter while doing as much damage. That is not true. 80% overall I agree with. 130% of the tankability while doing substantially less damage I agree with. Doing as much damage while being much less tankable I also agree with.

So...who's splitting hairs then?

The Wizard contributes almost as much through offense as the Fighter does at baseline. If we add in non-baseline (that is, consumable resources), the Wizard instantly blows the Fighter out of the water without needing to spend more than a quarter of their daily resources. E.g., two level 5 spells, which you can get back with Arcane Recovery. Per the DMG, that's two bouts of 8d10 against a single target, or 8d6 against multiple targets. Going with the latter, so long as you properly damage at least two targets each time (or target at least four, given half damage on a miss), that's 32d6 = 112 damage. From two spells. That you can then immediately regain with Arcane Recovery.

Even if we take the extremely generous tack of assuming the Fighter is guaranteed to hit with every attack made under Action Surge, that's only 2×(base attack damage)×(number of attacks per Attack)×(number of rests per day) bonus damage. Few groups get more than 2 short rests per day, for a total of 3 recharges of Action Surge (one from long rest, two from short rests.) 2×(1d8+5)×(4)×(3) = 24*9.5 = 228. So the Wizard, with just two spells, gets (almost exactly) half of all the bonus damage a Fighter can inflict IF every single one of those 24 additional attacks lands. Probably the best choice is synaptic static, given its excellent damage type and that it's an Int save (which even your vaunted Red Dragon would struggle to make--as would most non-gem dragons, actually.)

So...yeah. With four spells like the above (full damage on two targets, half damage on four, or full damage on one and half damage on two), the Wizard almost perfectly matches the Fighter class's main claim to fame, Action Surge, when every attack is guaranteed to hit, which isn't even remotely likely. That's four 5th-level spells--which, sure, isn't a trivial expense. But they've still got (in total) just as many 6th+7th level spells, another 5th still in the tank, and several 3rd and 4th level spells, all of which can be put to whatever use the Wizard sees fit.

How easy it is depends entirely on how you roll.

There's no need to roll. You can do it with point-buy. That's what I was using. Start with 14 Dex, 15 Int and get +2 Dex and +1 Int from your racial bonuses (which means Eladrin, High Elf, Mark of Passage Human, or certain Tiefling variants, if your DM is a stickler about that; otherwise, whatever tickles your fancy, though High Elf is quite nice for the bonus cantrip. If your DM is flexible and lets Half-Elf juggle their +2 around, even better, since then you can get the cantrip and a point of Con.)

 

[TwoSix]

Uh...where is this +28 coming from, exactly? You get +5 from stats, giving +20 only at level 20. We aren't assuming any bonuses, and a +2 magic weapon would absolutely be a bonus. If the Fighter is getting a +2 magic weapon, the Wizard should absolutely be getting a +2 magic focus (presumably the arcane grimoire), which means we'd need to start accounting for accuracy to properly reflect the differences.

Don't have a horse in the race (please don't involve me in this discussion!), but I would assume the additional +8 is from Dueling Fighting Style.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes, but you said 95% of a fighter. 2 hps is 33% less than a fighter and they start with a much worse AC before those spells.

95% tank not 95% hp... fighters have a good AC (but all classes can normally end withn 2ish of each other) but a wizard can drop a shield for +5... and the bladesinger will almost always be better AC thent he fighter prof time per day.
the war cleric and hexblade will almost always have the same AC as an equal fighter (I would NOT recomend the hexblade use shield but if they have to it is good)
the sword bard is the anomoly that most likely will not have the AC or the ability to negate attacks
the druid is SUPER weird with wildshape being impossible to nail down

To be clear I said if they focus on doing 95% of the tankability they won't match the damage. For example throwing up blur or PEG and then mirror image while sporting precast mage armor and max dex will roughly equal a fighter in plate and shield without any fighting style or subclass abilities to boost AC. But you took 2 rounds to do that, are way behind the fighter before you even start damaging and your cantrips do less damage.

I rarely see a caster with more then a 3pt spread with a fighter (baring a super optimized fighter) all the classes tend to bunch up in the 17-20 range. Mage armor lasts all day I rarely see mirrior image used (but not never) and blur is not the most common buff I have seen shield is.

On the other hand you could cast shadowblade or flaming sphere on turn 1 and keep up with that fighter pretty well (as long as concentration holds) but you will be very fragile and not nearly as tankable.

shadow blade and blade song and green flame blade or booming blade and you out damage the fighter and have the AC of atleast the fighter... take blade song out and you do have a lower AC until you shield.

Going with a bladesinger subclass mitigates a lot of this and makes you arguably the best tank in the game,

why is a subclass of wizard the best subclass in the game for the fighter specility... just this heere I think shows that the versitiiyl of the wizard (all casters) are too much... the war cleric and

being more survivable than a fighter when optimzed for it, but you will still be substantially behind a Fighter on damage.

before level 11 you wont... you can cantrip/weapon attack... at level 5 I think the fighter pulls

The key here is a Fighter does both of these well, and without using any spells. A Wizard has to choose which she wants to do.

no the thing is the fighter CAN'T choose they have 1 thing tank/damage... (TBF they have SOME choise to better AC or Better damage but it is a narrow range of choose) the casters (wizard is only 1 example) CAN choose to do that as well or better BUT can also choose to do other things... they can't do EVERYTHING at the same time they have to choose... but sometimes they can choose encounter to encounter (a prep caster with good damage and defense buffs can still have some misc spells preped) sometimes day to day and sometimes by build (I don't know many people that spec into hexblade sword pact warlock for dungeons then switch to fey tome for RP... nor do I think it happens)

That is the Versitility of the casters... that non casters just don't have. THAT is my problem... something giving fighters extra damage doesn't help....

the only excpetion is if you give the fighters enough damage and AC and HP that no caster could come close to it (say an optimized bladesinger or war cleric or hexblade with the best selection of spells can do 50-60% of that) then at least they are by far the best at what they do...

I have a ton of experience playing bladesingers and they really can be a great tank, and I play them with a 10 constitution even and still go right into the thick of combat.

I have not playeed one with a 10 or lower but I have a firend who did make it through 12ish levels (mostly the frost maiden adventure) as an elf bladesinger with an 8 con... I though it insane. but he made it work... and that DM made them roll not take average for hp so some levels he got 1hp...

But if you are not casting blur or PEG or dodging you will not survive long against tough foes.

put on leather or studded leather (best if you find a magic suit but you have no control and a DM worried about AC should NOT put one in) and have a +2 from dex gives you a 13 or 14 AC when you blade dance that adds in (atleast +3 but maybe up to +5) bringing you normal AC to 16-19 in blade dance combats... if you 1/fight cast shield to negate a hit that brings you to 21-24 AC... if you have ANY magic item boosting AC you might be better then the fighter in the party and you are down on average 2hp per level. you can cast 0 spells in a day otther then shield (far from optimal) and cantrips (especially a weapon one or two) and keep up with the fighter.

Every spell you cast in a day, be it damage, or protective, or healing, or social buff or travel, or diviniation are all things the fighter can NOT choose to spend rescouses on (they just don't have them.

So yeah you can bea fighter (maybe about 90-95% of one really) and still have more options.
there is no fighter subclass (eldritch knight is the closest) that lets you be even 50% of the wizard role.

And if you are doing those things, you can't keep up with a fighter on melee damage. It is math - when when the enemy has a +15 with a multiattack he is going to hit your 27AC often if you are not making him roll with disadvantage.

+15? what level are we talking? is this a level that you can already teleport, move mountains, and discover unkknowable lore with spell slots that the fighter can't dream of doing? you fell ever so slightly behind on damage (but not really green flame blade will deal weapon plus fire to target and an adjcet will take some fire, or booming blade will deal weapon damage plus cantrip damage and you can do that and make an extra attack... to the fighters 3 attacks)

You can mitigate this some with upcast false life,

wow, I have never seen someone upcast tthat... do you see it often? should my bladesinger/artificer try that? is it a big help?

I was talking about using SOS spells to penetrate Legendaries, IME that is tough to do. Against Kobolds, Orcs or really anything without legendaries SOS is usually much better than damage.

but you have the option... you can CHOOSE touse the SoS on earliey encounters and save the damage for legendary at teh end (unless you spend the whole day dragon slaying... I mean if your 4-6 encounters today are 3 dragons, 1 black 2 red, then a lich followed by a demon lord then that will suck)

 

[nevin]

I don't think this is true if you consider limited spells slots, subclass abilities and fighting style. Subclasses and fighting style for the most part boost damage or boost tankability or both while most wizard subclasses do not do that.

Wizards also can't do 95% of the tankability if they focus on damage. It really is either-or. They can do over 95% of the tankability if they focus on defense (probably over 100% on a bladesinger given equal constitution in tier 2), but their damage will suffer, because to keep the edge in tankability they need to use spells like blur instead of spells like shadowblade.




But that is 3 fails and enemies with legendaries are not going to take a long time to fail 3 times. For example you are fighting an aboleth (the lowest CR I could find with LR) and you have a 20 casting stat at level 8 for a DC of 16:

Most of your SOS spells are Wisdom, Int or Con which are +6, +8 and +6 respectively in both. So he has a 55% chance of making his Wisdom or Con save.

This means on average it will take you 8 rounds (and 8 spells) before he fails a single save against you. A damage dealing martial, assuming he is not killed or incapacitated, will typically kill an Aboleth in 8 rounds if he goes Nova.

Now having a Monk on hand or multiple casters with SOS spells shortens this significantly, but burning through legendaries is very difficult to do as a single caster.

THIS...... most wizard haters underestimate how much reliable damage a martial can put out in situations where the caster is unreliable.

 

[nevin]

but you have the option... you can CHOOSE touse the SoS on earliey encounters and save the damage for legendary at teh end (unless you spend the whole day dragon slaying... I mean if your 4-6 encounters today are 3 dragons, 1 black 2 red, then a lich followed by a demon lord then that will suck)

so the entire argument is based on the wizard knowing what he's going to fight, and the DM letting him bypass encounters. iffy argument at best.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

It is poweful no doubt, but if we are talking about classes only - Shield gives a wizard 18 plus dex, where a fighter is at 20 in plate and shield (or more with magic items).

I am goinng to assume that "more with magic items" goes for both... but okay

heavy armors cap at 18 (plate) medium armors at 17(half plate and +2 dex) and light armors at 17 (studd leather +5 dex)

now some work arounds exsist, barbarian and monk add two stats, so they max at 20 but since 2 +5s is harder then 1 +5 18 or 19 will be a more common max

wizards with amge armor and warlocks with shadow armor can do 13+ dex so they are back to 18 max

with shield prof you can add +2 but loose your off hand for two weapon or great weapons...

barbarians start with 12hp and get 7ish per level
Fighters Paladins and Rangers sstart with 10 hp and get 6ish per level
clerics bards warlocks rogues druids monks and artificers start with 8hp and get 5ish per level
wizards and sorcerers start with 6hp and get 4ish per level

if you want to melee (and not everyone does want to but if you want to) you will most likely prioritize hp and AC along with your melee attack. Most can only use str or dex for attack but hexblades and druids get to cheat with either wisdom or chariisma

So it is +5 to the Wizard AC, but it is not 5 better than a fighter

if the wizard is 2 or 3 lower then the fighter but someone hits what would be the fighter AC they wizard can choose to pop the shield, make it miss and get the benfit of a higher then the fighter AC until the end of the round.

and that is using every single reaction to get that, where a fighter really is "all the time" with a bunch more hps. Moreover at 20th level with a 23 AC (Mage Armor, Shield Spell, 20 Dex) you are going to be hit most of the time and you have a lot less hps unless you are burning slots on upcast false life.

the fighter and the wizard both have +5 dex... the wizard has mage armor the fighter studded leather and the defensive fighting style... the fighter also has the dueling fighting style for extra damage, and both have iness weapons, I will say a rapier just cause it's the best choose... the fighter I will give a +3 con but the wizard only a +2

level 20 before magic +s that we will say can be even
fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+5
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)
the fighter can action surge twice and can second wind once and has 3 rerolls of a save and has 2 feat/asi more then the wizard and can crit on an 18+ and hadd +3 (half prof) to phsyical skill/tools that they are not prof in.
the wizard gets 2 extra skills, and knows 8 9th level spells and can use 1 per day, they know 4 8th level spells and can use 1 per day they know 4 7th level spells and can use 2 slots worth per day and they know 4 6th level spells and can use 2 slots worth per day... they then know 27 spells under that between 1st and 5th and have 3 5th level slots 3 4th level slots 3 3rd level slots 3 2nd level slots and 4 4th level slots... AND they have 2 3rd level 1 2nd level and 1 1st level spell always prepared and the 1st and second they can use at lowest casting at will (hello shield at will) and those 2 3rd level ones can be used 1/day each for free... and on a short rest they can recall up to 10 levels worth of spells slots but only up to a max of 5th level spells... they also have 5 cantrips (one taken up by that weapon attack) that all scaled to doing 4dice of damage if they are damage causeing... but I would not suggest loading up on just damage...

now that wizard is I am SURE jelus of action surge... and wished they had it, but that hp diffrence is disceptive... someone (was it you) mentioned up casting false life... if you take a 6th level slot (I wouldn't) that alone gives you about 30hp... if you drop 2 2nd level slots (assuming you have a minute to catch your breath between encounters) 10 each and you are close... BUT WAIT, the fighter can self heal with second wind... 1d10+20hp is not great but it's not nothing (especially since we aren'y looking at a healer with these two)
the wizard will get hit less (they both get missed on any attack of 16 or less but an attack of 17-23 the wizard can negate if they have there reaction but the fighter is always missed on that 17)


BTW I did unbalance that a bit... I gave the fighter champion subclass but did not give the wizard a subclass at all... if I put warmage or bladesinger that would be unfair though.... and I don't think a necromancer or a invocer will add much, an abjurer maybe with the ward...

Agonizer's scorcher is weak damage at 20th level. A fighter is getting 4 attacks a turn, that is over 38 damage if he is a sword and board with no bonuses from subclass or anything else.

fighter makes 4 attacks wizard makes 1 (or 2 if they are a blade singer) and they do how much again?
ighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+5
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)

9ish so 36 for the fighter and 33 for non blade singer and the blade singer can get another 1d8+5 attack in for 10 more and maybe any of them can get 3d8+3 fire to an adjacent enemy

lets sayt eh wizard just stays back and fire bolts that is only 4d8 that is 20...

What I said was you are not doing 95% of the tankability of a fighter while doing as much damage and I think this is a good example, assuming max dex with shield spell you are about 80% of a fighter in terms of tankability (better AC, fewer hps), and doing about 40% of the damage.

booming blade and green flame blade seem to be ignored in this damage... the spells per day are EXTRA

by the by the wizard can make a magic weapon I think (I may be wrong) the fighter has to find one


edit: I missed dueling fighting style for 2 more damage per hit giving that fighter a 8pt bump

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes I am ignoring it because the claim is the Wizard could do as much damage while being 95% of the tankability of the fighter.

Fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+7
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)

wizard still has they'r swiss army win buttons of spells

 

[GMforPowergamers]

so the entire argument is based on the wizard knowing what he's going to fight, and the DM letting him bypass encounters. iffy argument at best.

that isn't the argument at all.... you are misrepresenting what I said

but you have the option... you can CHOOSE touse the SoS on earliey encounters and save the damage for legendary at teh end (unless you spend the whole day dragon slaying... I mean if your 4-6 encounters today are 3 dragons, 1 black 2 red, then a lich followed by a demon lord then that will suck)

Part A of mechanical problem) Casters can sitdown and make a build that is pretty darn close to fighter for both damage and AC and about 2/3 to 3/4 (depending wizard lower others higher). THIS IS ON A BUILD LEVEL... so choosing subclass feats.asi and stats around wanting to be the front line tank... you can do it (to be fair the best way IS to dip a level or two into fighter)
HOWEVER in that build you still have room for 1 or 2 things that a fighter can never do.

Part B of mechanical problem) some of those (again your not respec from hex blade lock to fey tome lock) can change day by day. You can pick some good tank stats and focus on casting other things and only prep tank spells when you want to... you can be a big strong (cleric, druid, bladesinger) that just uses at wills to be a bit weaker then the fighter and not buffed but have other spells preped... and other days say "nah today I will just do better thent eh fighter)

Part C of mechanical problem) no non caster (in this example a fighter) can say "I will like A make a build that makes me as versitile and as game altering as a sell caster" even the castery eldritch knioght is not a stand in for a wizad unless you take 3-5 levels of eldritch knight and 15-17 levels of wizard.
No non caster can switch during down time (we will even say a week not a long rest) and resecp to being anything other then some varriation on I hit hard and can take a hit.


Are there days that a wizard or cleric preps for something and ffinds they would have been better off preping other spells yes 100% seen it many times... how ever you know what I have never seen an entire set of games where that happens... not even campaign but 3 in a row is a weird annoloy...
having the perfect spell isn't EVER guarantee but you know what is, you will NEVER have the option to even TRY to have customized options ont he non caster that will help on things other then hit hard and take a hit

a 7th level wizard with 2 attacks or 1 attack and a cantrip or 1 spell against a 7th level fighter with 2 attacks or 1 attack and a cantrip or 1 spell sounds even... until you look even slightly deeper.
Assuming both started with a +3 int the wizard knows 21 spells from any school and can cast 4th and 3rd and 2nd level spells... the eldritch knight fighter can only knows 5 but they are all from 2 schools blow stuff up and protect schools...

the eldritch knight has 2 at wills the wizard 3 or 4

 

[NotAYakk]

It is D&D to have a character that runs 100' up a waterfall and cuts the head off a dragon.

However to do this in most D&D games you need magic items. A potion of haste, winged boots, etc.

I'm just confused as to what it has to do with more feats for martial classes in D&D5e.

Being able to run up a waterfall is not god-tier.

My actual play level 7 barbarian with winged boots can do it. They can rage, move 60' strait up the surface of the waterfall, and attack twice at the top.

But he can't cut a mountain top off. So I guess that is the god tier bit?

If I replaced those boots with items that let me fly twice as fast, but fall if unsupported, and I added some cheap grab-type operations, I could do a lot of what people are asking for high level martials to be able to do.

It has been known since 3e that "more feats" doesn't really fix much, because either you get feats that stack in strange ways that let you do one super buffed maneuver (the 3e power attack or trip stuff), or you run out of a stack and end up taking feats you rejected the first time around as additional options.

This is in practice.

In comparison, look at 4e powers. People did find ways to "stack" multiple powers by picking powers that used different action economies (minor, reaction, standard, ongoing from previous turns), but for the most part 4e powers resisted "you buy stuff that makes you better and better at that one thing". The Ranger class design failed, as stacking taps ended up dominating (so you got a lot of powers you could burn as fast as you can, each adding more taps).

Feats in 5e are a mixture of 3e feats and 4e powers in my experience, leaning a bit too heavily on 3e style. Adding more of them will up mechanical complexity way more than it fixes any capability gap.

...

OneD&D epic feats are interesting, but they show up really late. Here we have feats that you can't have taken 10 levels ago and chose not to.

In 4e they tried this with paragon tier and epic tier feats. OneD&D is going to have feats with level requirements.

However, I doubt they'll go far enough.

I doubt there will be a T2/T3 feat that lets you fly at twice your movement speed but you fall if unsupported at the end of your turn, for example. From the OneD&D examples, they'd consider that beyond epic tier, despite it being weaker than most T2 spells.

 

[ECMO3]

I am goinng to assume that "more with magic items" goes for both... but okay

heavy armors cap at 18 (plate) medium armors at 17(half plate and +2 dex) and light armors at 17 (studd leather +5 dex)

You are not considering shields which every martial character except a Monk can use. Yes

wizards with amge armor and warlocks with shadow armor can do 13+ dex so they are back to 18 max

If they have an 20 Dexterity, which is not common at all. A fighter can have an 18

with shield prof you can add +2 but loose your off hand for two weapon or great weapons...

Which a Wizard does not even have proficiency in. The point is a fighter can use any weapon the wizard has proficiency in and use a shield.

And to go back to 20 dexterity that Wizard's routinely have, the best melee weapon a wizard is proficient in which is usable with that 20 dexterity is a dagger!

Not only can a fighter have an 18 while also using 2 handed weapons, they can have a 20 while using a plethora of 1d8 weapons.

barbarians start with 12hp and get 7ish per level
Fighters Paladins and Rangers sstart with 10 hp and get 6ish per level
clerics bards warlocks rogues druids monks and artificers start with 8hp and get 5ish per level
wizards and sorcerers start with 6hp and get 4ish per level

if you want to melee (and not everyone does want to but if you want to) you will most likely prioritize hp and AC along with your melee attack. Most can only use str or dex for attack but hexblades and druids get to cheat with either wisdom or chariisma

if the wizard is 2 or 3 lower then the fighter but someone hits what would be the fighter AC they wizard can choose to pop the shield, make it miss and get the benfit of a higher then the fighter AC until the end of the round.

the fighter and the wizard both have +5 dex... the wizard has mage armor the fighter studded leather and the defensive fighting style... the fighter also has the dueling fighting style for extra damage, and both have iness weapons, I will say a rapier just cause it's the best choose... the fighter I will give a +3 con but the wizard only a +2

The fighter can have a BOTH 20 strength and a 20 dex, get it earlier than a wizard with the same rolls can get a 20Int and 20Dex, have more hit points and a higher constitution to boot (due to the extra ASI) .

So there is no combat-related reason such a fighter will be in studded leather when he could just as easily where plate and have a better AC.

If the Wizard is going to boost his dexterity all the way to 20 to get that 18 AC and bolster your strawman argument, then the dex-based fighter is certainly going to boost his strength to at least 15 to be able to do the same thing. If that extra poinf AC is enough for the Wizard to take multiple ASIs to get to 18, then it is worth it for the fighter to take fewer ASIs (or just start with a 15) to get it.

Which brings up another good point - If we are playing on point buy, the Wizard can start with a 16AC if he invests heavily in dexterity. The dex-based fighter only needs to invest 15 in strength to be able to use all armors, effectively making 18AC possible at 1st level, (without a fighting style) while requiring less initial investment than a Wizard needs to get to 16. Assuming the Wizard maxes intelligence first, ignores Con for ASIs and takes no feat, at 16th level he will finally get to where the Dex-based fighter was at 1st level with a smaller off-main stat investment..

level 20 before magic +s that we will say can be even
fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+5
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)
the fighter can action surge twice and can second wind once and has 3 rerolls of a save and has 2 feat/asi more then the wizard and can crit on an 18+ and hadd +3 (half prof) to phsyical skill/tools that they are not prof in.

Ok this is all over the map.

1. The fighter using a rapier is going to have a AC of 21 as illustrated above since he will be wearing plate and a shield, or alternatively he will have a 20 AC and be doing 1d8+7 with dueling. Why would he not be wearing plate and a shield when using a rapier?

2. It looks like you are using subclasses here and chose an extremely weak Champion as your fighter. If you did that you forgot to add the second fighting style which means he has BOTH dueling AND defense.

3. I am not sure what you are doing for the Wizard number here. If you are looking at a bladesinger with a 20 dex and 16 intelligence the actual damage is in bladesong 1 attack 1d8+8, 1 cantrip attack 4d8+8

So to correct the fighter numbers, since the actual attack bonuses are the same we will assume all hits:

Fighter: 1d8+7 with crit on 18+ is 12.175 per hit or 48.7 per attack action. With 6 fights a day, 2 fights per short rest and 4 rounds per fighter gets 30 attack actions a day (24 actions, 6 action surges). Total melee damage for the day is 1461 damage (assuming all hits)

Wizard: 5d8+14 is 39.625 damage per attack action in bladesong. He gets 24 attack actions total melee damage for the day of 951 or roughly two thirds of the damage the fighter does

That is damage for a crappy fighter subclass against a Bladesinger in Bladesong which is the best melee wizard. Put a better fighter in there and you will run away even more.

You say it is equal but it is not even close.

BTW I did unbalance that a bit... I gave the fighter champion subclass but did not give the wizard a subclass at all... if I put warmage or bladesinger that would be unfair though.... and I don't think a necromancer or a invocer will add much, an abjurer maybe with the ward...

How do you add intelligence to your cantrip damage if you were not using a subclass?

The numbers I gave above are for a bladesinger and they are way behind a basic crappy champion at that level. Not a little behind, way behind and they don't consider things like using actions to cast false life, defensive spells in combat, more than 6 fights (out of bladesong) or losing bladesong mid fight.

Now on the defensive side, I agree a Wizard can be every bit of the tank a fighter can. A better tank in fact than a fighter can ever manage if optimised for that. But such a wizard will not keep up in melee damage. It is not even close. To keep up in melee they need to use offensive melee oriented spells (shadowblade, haste, Spirit Shroud etc) and if they do that they will not be as effective at tanking.

One other thing to note on hp is they are a daily resource, not just a total resource. A fighter with 180hps and 3 short rests a day has the hit points he ends his long rest with plus the hit points in his hit dice plus the hit points in second wind 3 times a day. A fighter with 180hps total will have between 347.5-437.5 hit points per day to "spend" depending on how many hit dice he starts the day with. A Wizard with 120hps total has between 180-240hps per day to spend (not including any from false life). This matters when you are talking about how much damage a character can take over the course of a day.

 

[ECMO3]

Fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+7
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)

You are putting numbers up here that prove my point.

the claim is 95% of tankability and you post a wizard that has a lower AC and 66% of the hps of the fighter - or 50% of the fighter if you include 3-daily second wind (unless you are burning spell slots on false life and then the other statement below is untrue).

4 weapon attacks totaling 4d8+28 is A LOT MORE damage than one spell attack at 4d8+5. It is twice as much .... and I don't know where the int mod is coming from, are you talking about Empowered Evocation from the School of Evocation subclass?

So the numbers you posted above is roughly 50% of the tankability and 50% of the melee damage. It is not anywhere close to 95% of the tankability and 100% of the damage!

wizard still has they'r swiss army win buttons of spells

If you have them prepared and don't use the to slots to be able to tank better than a fighter sure.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You are not considering shields which every martial character except a Monk can use. Yes

right cause getting a shield prof is easy, and aagain anyone can get it... so no that didn't enter in, and at best gives the fighter a +2 AC but also the warcleric and I think hexblade and valor bard but I would have to check... if your argument is that shield prof is equal to having 3rd+ level spells you are in a bad postion already... let alone 9th level spells.

If they have an 20 Dexterity, which is not common at all. A fighter can have an 18

if stats are equal to start fighter has 1 feat/ASI bonus over the caster at level 6 (so by level 12 witch is the entire game for most people, and more then half the game for everyone) and 2 feat/asi by 20th (16th or 17th I think)

The fighter can have a BOTH 20 strength and a 20 dex, get it earlier than a wizard with the same rolls can get a 20Int and 20Dex, have more hit points and a higher constitution to boot (due to the extra ASI) .

notice I didn't give the wizard a 20 Int at all... if you WANT TO MELEE you most likely will put dex and con over int.

So there is no combat-related reason such a fighter will be in studded leather when he could just as easily where plate and have a better AC.

maybe I will give you this... I just am not used to seeing fighters with 15+ dex wearing heavy armor since they can't use there dex in it (exception is the barbarian subclass from middle earth that lets you use full dex in any armor... I have seen that end up with plate(full or half) + high dex) in theory you could get 1 more with plate I just don't see it often enough to have thought that way.

If the Wizard is going to boost his dexterity all the way to 20 to get that 18 AC and bolster your strawman argument,

this isn't a strawman since I didn't assume any argument on your or anyone else part... I think you want to accuse me of a different fake made up fallacy from debate class... but we are talking not debating for points so I don't care enough to even learn them... but I do know this isn't a strawman.

then the dex-based fighter is certainly going to boost his strength to at least 15 to be able to do the same thing. If that extra poinf AC is enough for the Wizard to take multiple ASIs to get to 18, then it is worth it for the fighter to take fewer ASIs (or just start with a 15) to get it.

once again, okay fair enough +1 higher AC for plate.

Which brings up another good point - If we are playing on point buy, the Wizard can start with a 16AC if he invests heavily in dexterity. The dex-based fighter only needs to invest 15 in strength to be able to use all armors, effectively making 18AC possible at 1st level,

I may just have missed it but what class or background gives you plate at 1st level?

1. The fighter using a rapier is going to have a AC of 21 as illustrated above since he will be wearing plate and a shield, or alternatively he will have a 20 AC and be doing 1d8+7 with dueling. Why would he not be wearing plate and a shield when using a rapier?

if you see the edit I missed the dueling I admited that within 3 or 4 minutes of posting... the AC I will grant you is 1 higher (and both can grab shields)

2. It looks like you are using subclasses here and chose an extremely weak Champion as your fighter.

here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit and half prof to a bunch of skills to get some (admitidly more fun) tricks a few times per day... but nothing on par with a 5th level spell, most likely you wont find something like a 3rd level one but for sure the 2 6th 2 7th 1 8th and 1 9th level spell the wizard has alone not countign the other 5 levels will blow those options away so it wont help.

3. I am not sure what you are doing for the Wizard number here. If you are looking at a bladesinger with a 20 dex and 16 intelligence the actual damage is in bladesong 1 attack 1d8+8, 1 cantrip attack 4d8+8.

the base weapon is 1d8+5 plus 3d8+3 fire and an ajacent creature takes 3d8+3 fire.

So to correct the fighter numbers, since the actual attack bonuses are the same we will assume all hits:

Fighter: 1d8+7 with crit on 18+ is 12.175 per hit or 48.7 per attack action. With 6 fights a day, 2 fights per short rest and 4 rounds per fighter gets 30 attack actions a day (24 actions, 6 action surges). Total melee damage for the day is 1461 damage (assuming all hits)

Wizard: 5d8+14 is 39.625 damage per attack action in bladesong. He gets 24 attack actions total melee damage for the day of 951 or roughly two thirds of the damage the fighter does

that is 2/3rd damage if the wizard never has an adjacent enemy to green flame, and if the wizard never takes 1 round to use a high level spell. just at will (and only 1 of 5 at wills the wizard has) your math does 2/3 the damage. that is the best the fighter can do and the least the wizard can do.

congrats that is the best example I have ever seen. A wizard useing an atwill cantrip (1 of 5) and a fighter useing all his action surges and getting 2 short rests to keep reuseing them the fighter does 1/3 more damage. that wizard still has 4 more at wills and 9 levels of spell slots.

That is damage for a crappy fighter subclass against a Bladesinger in Bladesong

blade song doesn't add to damage it adds to AC, so it is just a blade singer all day long... the blade song boost his AC over or equal to the fighter and what fighter subclass is at will giving you better then that 18+ crit and second fighting style?

which is the best melee wizard.

I mean it's one of the only, maybe the only worth talking about melee but it is useing the melee cantrip that wizards, sorcerers, artificers and warlocks all have (green flame blade) or with a feat anyone can have (but that only really helps the eldritch knight fighter who I think can also grab it TBF)

Put a better fighter in there and you will run away even more.

what fighter gets better atwill damage? also how does that (not atwill) resources stack up to even 3rd level spells?

You say it is equal but it is not even close.

your best bet got the wizard useing no resources per day to 2/3 the damage.

How do you add intelligence to your cantrip damage if you were not using a subclass?

green flame blade adds Int to damage at 1st level then adds 1/2/3D8s at 5/11/17

my non melee weak wizard can take a staff or knife or I think club and swap out for a day to have green flame blade and add int to damage at level 1 no sub class (Not what I would recomend mind you but they can)

The numbers I gave above are for a bladesinger and they are way behind a basic crappy champion at that level.

champion is your best bet for at will with that 18+ crit and your least fun option... BUT yes it is going agianst THE MELEE WIZARD and the fighter is useing all of there resources (action surge) and the wizard is useing non of his (spells). and you STILL got to 2/3rd.

Not a little behind, way behind and they don't consider things like using actions to cast false life, defensive spells in combat, more than 6 fights (out of bladesong) or losing bladesong mid fight.

no I would not consider casting false life in any battle unless I was brain dead... I said that spell (That wasn't even my example at first but one adopted from this thread and I am still waiting on hearing if people actuallly think it's worth trying) was only if you had some down time between fights... but since you gave us 2 short rests we know we have some.

Now on the defensive side, I agree a Wizard can be every bit of the tank a fighter can. A better tank in fact than a fighter can ever manage if optimised for that. But such a wizard will not keep up in melee damage.

why is that wizard useing all 3-5 of his cantrips everyturn? because if not greenflame blade is all I used and by YOUR math that at will is 2/3 the out put of a fighter...
in your mind is the tanking wizard useing every single spell slot to tank too? what 7th or 8th level spells? (Yeah I hear people talk about dropping a 9th level immunity if that is what you mean, but again myself I have never seen it used well)

It is not even close. To keep up in melee they need to use offensive melee oriented spells (shadowblade, haste, Spirit Shroud etc) and if they do that they will not be as effective at tanking.

I just did it with green flame blade as 2/3 the damage, so add 1 not all of those and it is better then 2/3 and that is if at no point they start at range and the wizard drops a 3rd or 4th level spell.

One other thing to note on hp is they are a daily resource, not just a total resource. A fighter with 180hps and 3 short rests a day has the hit points he ends his long rest with plus the hit points in his hit dice plus the hit points in second wind 3 times a day.

that is true the fighter d10HD is a bonus over the wizard d6s... and I will even admit I have seen low and mid level parties need to use half or more of there HD on occasion so on those days the fighter does have the edge of 2pts of healing on average per die. I should list that more. Sorry.

A fighter with 180hps total will have between 347.5-437.5 hit points per day to "spend" depending on how many hit dice he starts the day with. A Wizard with 120hps total has between 180-240hps per day to spend (not including any from false life). This matters when you are talking about how much damage a character can take over the course of a day.

the problem is that most parties have someone that can heal (and again the wizard is not only the weakest caster for melee but one of the only ones that can't self heal), and that makes the numbers un usable...

 

[GMforPowergamers]

You are putting numbers up here that prove my point.

nope... it is the weakest full caster in melee and it is doing a pretty good job with 1 of there cantrips and 0 spell slots...

Fighter AC 18 181hp 4 attacks +11 1d8+7
wizard AC 17 120hp 1 attack +11 1d8+3d8+5+int mod (lets say that is 3)

was not a bladesinger (or they would get a second attack at 1d8+5) and isn't useing any spells slots.

there is 0 reason why a wizard should be able to do this, and they are FAR from the only casters that can...
the valor or sword bard gets 2 attacks or a cantrip not both like bladesinger but also gets 9 levels of spells gets a die code higher of HD and can do this too (useing cha instead of int an arguable better stat)
the hexblade is down right broken being able to use Cha to attack AND for spells and can do this with 2 attacks or cantrip but also has medium armor 2-3 up to 5th level spell slots per short rest and 1 each of 6ht-9th level spells...and that d8 HD instead of d6

The war cleric and the druid... you know what I think you get it.

this wasn't the best melee tank of the casters useing everything they have... this was the worst melee tank of the casters useing 0 spell slots and only 1 at will

the claim is 95% of tankability and you post a wizard that has a lower AC and 66% of the hps of the fighter

at will with no resource use... correct this wasn't my best this was just a wizard. again a blade singer will have higher AC and both have spells 9th level ones by the time of 20th level.

- or 50% of the fighter if you include 3-daily second wind (unless you are burning spell slots on false life and then the other statement below is untrue).

again I love this... second wind is cool but it is not on par with ANY 2md level spells let alone 8th or 9th (I can see a good argument that it is as good as a 1st level spell though)

4 weapon attacks totaling 4d8+28 is A LOT MORE damage than one spell attack at 4d8+5. It is twice as much .... and I don't know where the int mod is coming from, are you talking about Empowered Evocation from the School of Evocation subclass?

the base cantrip is adding INT, if you don't know green flame blade then maybe you need to go read up on melee casters... because I am going to have to assume you have never seen one in play.

So the numbers you posted above is roughly 50% of the tankability and 50% of the melee damage. It is not anywhere close to 95% of the tankability and 100% of the damage!

it's about 2/3 but okay we can round down to 50%... okay now that wizard gets a subclass (cause again I DIDN'T use blade singer or the numbers are higher) and 1st 2nd 3rd 4th and 5th level spells... all the way up to 9th.

If you have them prepared and don't use the to slots to be able to tank better than a fighter sure.

wait what?!?!
a wizard can prep level+int mod spells and has a full caster worth of slots... if they put ANY of those to tank or damage they up that 50%... if they put ALL of them to it they shoot past the fighter... but they don't have to put all of them, just a few defenses (shield is big) and a few damage at range (too many to list) and then can prep 'make under water basket weave itself' and still be fine.

 

[ECMO3]

right cause getting a shield prof is easy, and aagain anyone can get it... so no that didn't enter in, and at best gives the fighter a +2 AC but also the warcleric and I think hexblade and valor bard but I would have to check... if your argument is that shield prof is equal to having 3rd+ level spells you are in a bad postion already... let alone 9th level spells.

It gives the fighter a 20AC and is universally available as part of their class. You were talking abotu a fighter and an 18 AC, but why would you be playing such a character when you could easily have a 20

I said it would give a fighter a 20 or 21AC (not 17, not 18 which the numbers you were throwing around) while also doing twice as much damage in melee as the wizard cantrip numbers you posted. Literally twice as much.

Who said it was equal to 3rd and 9th level spells? I never said that.

if stats are equal to start fighter has 1 feat/ASI bonus over the caster at level 6 (so by level 12 witch is the entire game for most people, and more then half the game for everyone) and 2 feat/asi by 20th (16th or 17th I think)

1 ASI is two more points. Morover when talking about melee the fighter is generally less MAD and can make strength and dexterity and constitution his three highest stats. It is more difficult to build a Wizard to do this

Finally your whole arguement is the Wizard can easily have a 20 Dexterity. Doing that on point buy before level 12 means at most he has invested 2 points in intelligence OR taken 1 feat.

here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit

In a discussion focused on both tanakability and DPR a Rune Knight is one of the better ones (Battlemaster is the best but the math for that is overwhelming).

Being able to crit on an 18 adds less than 4DPR to the champion build. The Rune Knight has that beat by a mile because he makes one eitght of his attacks at advantage, gets an extra 1d10 damage per round (and he can float it to a different attack if he misses). On the tankability side the RK gets resistance to bludgeoning, piercing and slashing as well as the ability to transfer an entire attack to someone else and restrain one enemy a short rest.

notice I didn't give the wizard a 20 Int at all... if you WANT TO MELEE you most likely will put dex and con over int.

Sure. But you did give the Wizard an intelligence bonus to his cantrip that he does not gdet as a class feature.

maybe I will give you this... I just am not used to seeing fighters with 15+ dex wearing heavy armor since they can't use there dex in it (exception is the barbarian subclass from middle earth that lets you use full dex in any armor... I have seen that end up with plate(full or half) + high dex) in theory you could get 1 more with plate I just don't see it often enough to have thought that way.

Yes they can use dex in it. They have disadvantage on stealth checks, they do not have any penalties on any other dexterity checks, and disadvantage is not the same as auto failure.

once again, okay fair enough +1 higher AC for plate.

Or actually +3e more for plate and a shield/

I may just have missed it but what class or background gives you plate at 1st level?

I said possible, not available. Moreover it is going to take your max out dex Wizard 8 levels to get there, while investing more in an off-stat.

here we go... the champion is the defualt... I gave it cause it is easy. you want to try to run something better (my guess will be rune knight or psiknight) you will be at the same for atwill output EXCEPT loose that 18+crit and half prof to a bunch of skills to get some (admitidly more fun) tricks a few times per day... but nothing on par with a 5th level spell, most likely you wont find something like a 3rd level one but for sure the 2 6th 2 7th 1 8th and 1 9th level spell the wizard has alone not countign the other 5 levels will blow those options away so it wont help.

The half proficiency to a bunch of skills is irrelevant in a discussion focused on melee damage and tankability only (as for that matter is access to 9th level spells if you don't use them for one of these things).

What 7th level spell is going to give the Wizard more tankability or melee damage? Your arguement is this is important to doing these things, tell me what spell you are going to use for that (I know what I would use).

the base weapon is 1d8+5 plus 3d8+3 fire and an ajacent creature takes 3d8+3 fire.

Ok to start with Green Flame Blade does not add your intelligence modifier to the creature you attack with it. I have said this a few times now. The only ways to do that which I know of are to play school of Evocation-Evocation mastery or School of Bladesinging-Song of Victory.

Second in the uncommon situation where there is a 2nd enemy next to the first you are doing 7d8+8 damage total, which is still substantially less than the champion fighter doing 4d8+28.

that is 2/3rd damage if the wizard never has an adjacent enemy to green flame

Where do you get 2/3rds from?

4d8+5 is 23.9DPR

A base fighter with no subclass is doing 4d8+28 is doing 46.9DPR, with dueling and no subclass (i.e. no crit on a 18).

23.9 is A LOT closer to 50% than it is to 2/3rds.

and if the wizard never takes 1 round to use a high level spell. just at will (and only 1 of 5 at wills the wizard has) your math does 2/3 the damage. that is the best the fighter can do and the least the wizard can do.

It is 50% less.

Instead of going on and on about these theoreticals post some actual spells with real numbers that are going to accomplish what you claim - 95% of the tankability and 100% or more of the melee damage simultaneously for the course of a day.

congrats that is the best example I have ever seen. A wizard useing an atwill cantrip (1 of 5) and a fighter useing all his action surges and getting 2 short rests to keep reuseing them the fighter does 1/3 more damage.

That is exactly what I claimed from the begining. to be clear this is the closest Wizard I can come up with and a relatively weak fighter over a normal adventuring day and it is nowhere near the same, not even close.

If you can beat it, then put up spells and numbers to do that.

that wizard still has 4 more at wills and 9 levels of spell slots.

Ok. How is he going to use them to beat the fighter in melee damage while maintaining 95% of the tankability.

blade song doesn't add to damage it adds to AC, so it is just a blade singer all day long... the blade song boost his AC over or equal to the fighter and what fighter subclass is at will giving you better then that 18+ crit and second fighting style?

WRONG. At 14th level being in Bladesong adds intelligence modifier to weapon attacks and I used that in the calculations I made.

The Champion fighter you chose to use gets 2 fighting styles, one at 1st level , one at 10th level.

or with a feat anyone can have (but that only really helps the eldritch knight fighter who I think can also grab it TBF)

Magic-Initiate with booming Blade and Green Flame Bade arethe most common feats I see on Rogues that are not an Arcane Trickster.

On a fighter is not very useful because you can't use it with extra attack (unless you are a bladesinger). So after level 5 it is extremely weak.

your best bet got the wizard useing no resources per day to 2/3 the damage.

50% of the damage, but I am still waiting to hear what spells you are using to beat it.

green flame blade adds Int to damage at 1st level then adds 1/2/3D8s at 5/11/17

No it doesn't. Go read the spell.

It adds int damage to the 2nd target only.

champion is your best bet for at will with that 18+ crit and your least fun option... BUT yes it is going agianst THE MELEE WIZARD and the fighter is useing all of there resources (action surge) and the wizard is useing non of his (spells). and you STILL got to 2/3rd.

50% but whos counting?

No I would not consider casting false life in any battle unless I was brain dead...

Then you are not going to match 95% of the tankability of a fighter at that level, even with a higher AC. False is the only spell you have as a Wizard that can give you hit points and you will be losing them very quickly.

why is that wizard useing all 3-5 of his cantrips everyturn? because if not greenflame blade is all I used and by YOUR math that at will is 2/3 the out put of a fighter...

Because that is the idea. Melee you know .... what this whole discussion is about.

in your mind is the tanking wizard useing every single spell slot to tank too?

Ok. I have played this build A LOT. 95% of the leveled spells cast are one of the following:

Contingency(with a 5th level false life to trigger on low hit points)
Mage Armor
False Life
Haste
Blur
Absorb Elements
Shield
Protection from Evil and Good

There are a host of other situational spells to use too but these are the primary ones you are casting.

That is what he uses spell slots for, including high level slots. These spells will make you a BETTER tank than a fighter. Not equal, better. That is the whole thing you are trying to do with this build. It is the theme but it is NOT doing better in melee damage.

If you start using spells on other things you will generally not survive as long.

I think the difference between you and I is that I actually have played a hard melee Wizard at high levels and I know what you need to do to tank better in melee than a fighter or a Barbarian

again I love this... second wind is cool but it is not on par with ANY 2md level spells let alone 8th or 9th (I can see a good argument that it is as good as a 1st level spell though)

Please let me know what 2nd level Wizard spell can give you 27.5hps as a bonus action in combat.

The closest thing you have is False Life which needs to be upcast to 4th level to match this, or Wish which is a 9th level spell and is an action to cast.

Note I am not counting Tensor's Transformation in this because that will seriously screw up your ability to attack and also take down your other defenses.

Being able to stay above 0 hps is the key feature in being able to tank.

I just did it with green flame blade as 2/3 the damage, so add 1 not all of those and it is better then 2/3 and that is if at no point they start at range and the wizard drops a 3rd or 4th level spell.

Except your example was actually 50% of the damage and 2/3rds is not equal damage.

I want the build that is doing 95% of the tankability and equal damage at the same time and I don't want well I can do 2/3rds and have all these spells .... of course you can, you are a Wizard but that is not the same thing. What I want is the actual build that is doing both these things at the same time - more damage, 95% of tankability

the problem is that most parties have someone that can heal (and again the wizard is not only the weakest caster for melee but one of the only ones that can't self heal), and that makes the numbers un usable...

If the party is constantly healing you, especially in combat, then you are not doing your job as a tank. Any character can tank with a cleric on standby to heal him every time he goes down.

 

[Clint_L]

Yes I am ignoring it because the claim is the Wizard could do as much damage while being 95% of the tankability of the fighter.



Not "at most". Using only class abilities and no feats "at most" the tanky fighter will put out 44 damage (4d8+28) average if all hit. The wizard with 4d10 is doing 22 or half of that.

How many creatures CR 15 or higher have weak wisdom saves?



64%, even if it is true, is less than 100%



Considering saves, A fireball would need to hit 4 enemies to reliably outdamage a fighter and you can do this 3 times a day at 20th level .... or essentially every round for most of ONE fight.

Now you do have a lot of other spells, but you are using a lot of them to be "95%" as tanky as a fighter. So you are up standing next to the ancient red dragon .... err blue dragon ..... as you cast fireball at him.




People started talking about spell mastery, which is 18th level and you are splitting hairs here.




No he can't. A 3rd level damaging spell will generally not do as much damage as a full attack action by a fighter. It some cases it will if the enemies are tightly packed, but not in most cases.

Also to keep up your 95% of the tankability you will need to use many of these slots on false life because a fighter has more hit points and can heal himself about 75 points a day (not counting hit dice)



A Bladesinger concentrating on Shadowblade with no temp hps will not last two rounds in melee against most difficult foes she will face and her shadowblade often won't last one round due to crappy concentration saves. Also Shadow Blade and Bladesong are both a Bonus Action.




Sure if the save fails he is almost up to what a fighter can do, but the save is going to be made a lot more than a fighter will miss.


I agree completely, and 80% overall is less than 95% of tankability while maintaining the same damage like I said originally.

To reiterate the original claim I disagreed with was that a Wizard can be 95% of the tankability of a fighter while doing as much damage. That is not true. 80% overall I agree with. 130% of the tankability while doing substantially less damage I agree with. Doing as much damage while being much less tankable I also agree with.



How easy it is depends entirely on how you roll. With great rolls it is easy to do, with poor rolls not easy to do. But regardles of how possible it is, we are assuming they are not maxing another stat first or taking a feat and that is actually the "big assumption" I was talking about.

When I am playing a bladesinger, absolutely I do that - max int and dex first. When I am playing a non-bladesinger not ususally. Usually things like Warcaster or multiple half feats on intelligence are more attractive to me than maxing dex.

This is without factoring in magic items which, as far as reliable damage output goes, heavily favour fighters. At level 20 we have to assume a +3 weapon.

No one out damages a level 20 fighter on a reliable basis. Other classes might have surges here and there, especially in circumstances such as a cluster of weak opponents, but if you are just whaling on a Big Bad, fighters are amazing. I thought the argument was that the fighter lacked options, not that they lack damage or survivability.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Except your example was actually 50% of the damage and 2/3rds is not equal damage.

I'm not going point by point any more... I took YOUR math that YOU said 2/3 and assumed it was right. I then kept going with it.

I will admit I added 3 extra damage because I miss remembered green flame. like teh fighter in plate instead of useing his dex I will admit to a mistake. However I will not concead the idea that a wiazrd is casting false life mid fight at any given regularity... that is a pre fight buff most times. (and again is not a common one at that as far as I have seen)

however my argument seems to have been lost on you so let me try again...





The wizard is the worst caster to put in melee... (maybe an argument could be made for sorcerer being worse) and it can by your own account out fighter a fighter with the right spells going (weather we disagree on what those spells are not withstanding)

now if the worst (or second worst if you want to argue sorcerer) full caster to make melee can out melee the fighter and the fighter can NOT choose to out do the caster in any of the things a caster can do, what you have is a rules problem where being a caster is always the better choice.


in the last 6 years (so going back to 2017 but not all the way to 2014) I have seen 0 straight fighters and 1 straight rogue and 1 straight monk (that one was me and I sucked) with the exception of when we put the restriction on the game that no one could be a full (or sometimes any) caster...

the reason is simple and one that we can elaborate on if you want more detail. If I want to play in melee I have multi options for casters. If I want to play at range I have multi casters. If I want to be something OTHER then combat focus I have plenty of casters... round by round and build by build the casters make more interesting choses and have the potential* for more power.

So the fix I want is a fighter that can be as good at melee as a caster BUT can choose to also be as good at explortation and social encounters. HOWEVER I want that fighter to have options both round to round and build to build... like a caster.


*Now I saw potential because at no point have I argued that there is not times when a caster doesn't have the right spells known/preped/availubul and as such can not pull out a swiss army win button... BUT where there is a chance of it with the caster it is 99% assuered (100% if I hit it hard doesn't solve it) the non casters wont have that win button either.

 

[MichaelSomething]

It would be easier to compare classes if people could post high level character sheets...

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

This is without factoring in magic items which, as far as reliable damage output goes, heavily favour fighters. At level 20 we have to assume a +3 weapon.

No one out damages a level 20 fighter on a reliable basis. Other classes might have surges here and there, especially in circumstances such as a cluster of weak opponents, but if you are just whaling on a Big Bad, fighters are amazing. I thought the argument was that the fighter lacked options, not that they lack damage or survivability.

Part of the issue is that not many groups actually use the 8-encounter adventuring day in which the fighters get to show how reliable they are.
If the adventuring day only has a couple of encounters in it, then fighters can and do get out damaged.

As I mentioned earlier, even if you restrict performance to melee attacks only, a Bladesinger wizard that decides "tomorrow I just want to wreck " as the group raids the BBEG's lair can probably out-do most fighters even without AoE, or save-based spells.

 

[ECMO3]

I'm not going point by point any more... I took YOUR math that YOU said 2/3 and assumed it was right. I then kept going with it.

I also said it was for a Bladesinger, your claim was 2/3rds for a Wizard without a subclass.

I will admit I added 3 extra damage because I miss remembered green flame. like teh fighter in plate instead of useing his dex I will admit to a mistake. However I will not concead the idea that a wiazrd is casting false life mid fight at any given regularity... that is a pre fight buff most times. (and again is not a common one at that as far as I have seen)

Ok don't cast it and then die.

If you are a 120hp wizard and you are tanking and relying on spamming shield for your defense at 20th level you will die very quickly. A Ancient Red Dragon on average will take you to 0 in a round and a half. That includes your free casting of shield and your 20 Dex. It is possible for him to take you to 0 in a single round with good rolls and that is without even breathing. You on average go down in round 1 if the Dragon breathes on you.

On the other hand cast an 8th level False life before the fight, have a second one at 5th level under a contingency and now you can last into the third round, which is where a stock sword and board fighter with no magic would go down. Cast a third false life at 7th level in the second or 3rd round and you have a fair chance to make it into the 4th round. Go with a Bladesinger and the same two initial spells and you can beat both the fighter and the non-bladesinger getting to probably round 6. The play for a bladesinger here is complicated with three legendaries and he should not spam shield on the first hit that would cancel.

Don't use False life and you won't last tanking.

The wizard is the worst caster to put in melee... (maybe an argument could be made for sorcerer being worse) and it can by your own account out fighter a fighter with the right spells going (weather we disagree on what those spells are not withstanding)

A Wizard built for melee is great at it but it can be either a tank or a damage dealer in melee and do ONE of those better than a fighter but not both. If it focuses on being a tank she will not deal as much damage. If she focuses on dealing damage she will not be able to tank as well.

The Wizard example above can tank as good as a fighter. Instead of using her high level slots on false life you can use them on something like spam upcasting an 8th level shadowblade (recasting when you lose concentration). If you do this you will equal or even beat the fighter on melee damage, but you won't last very long doing it.

now if the worst (or second worst if you want to argue sorcerer) full caster to make melee can out melee the fighter and the fighter can NOT choose to out do the caster in any of the things a caster can do, what you have is a rules problem where being a caster is always the better choice.

Of course he can't, because he is a fighter, the class is not designed to and the mechanics are not built into it. On the other hand mechanics to be effective in melee are built into the Wizard class.

in the last 6 years (so going back to 2017 but not all the way to 2014) I have seen 0 straight fighters and 1 straight rogue and 1 straight monk (that one was me and I sucked) with the exception of when we put the restriction on the game that no one could be a full (or sometimes any) caster...

Most polls indicate more people are playing fighters than any other class.

I have seen single class PCs for every class except Cleric. I might have seen a single class Cleric too, I just don't remember one. IME most players do not multiclass. I have seen many single class Monks and Fighters, to include single class fighters of my own.

I played in a fair number of games do not even allow multiclassing, but I did not play any that did not allow casters.

I almost always multiclass if it is allowed, but I am playing a straight fighter myself right now (Shaddar Kai with Zhentilar's Finest subclass). I will also point out that the only two classes I played personally in 5E where I did not multiclass are Paladin and Fighter.

So the fix I want is a fighter that can be as good at melee as a caster BUT can choose to also be as good at explortation and social encounters. HOWEVER I want that fighter to have options both round to round and build to build... like a caster.

I personally don't want to see more put into the fighter class to do this. The fighter can already use races, backgrounds and feats to be good at that stuff while still being good at melee.

The only way to give them all the options casters have is to give them spells. If you absolutely must "fix" the fighter to be good at other things just make them a full caster with the same spell progression as Wizards.

*Now I saw potential because at no point have I argued that there is not times when a caster doesn't have the right spells known/preped/availubul and as such can not pull out a swiss army win button... BUT where there is a chance of it with the caster it is 99% assuered (100% if I hit it hard doesn't solve it) the non casters wont have that win button either.

I would not agree with 99%, although I would agree that it is not often. I would say something like 70% is more common.

For example you need to break through a locked door/gate/chest/handcuffs .... a fighter with strength just might have that "win" button. A wizard absolutely could do better ... if he has the right spell.

We are also ignoring subclasses here, because fighter subclasses bring a lot of this stuff to the game, generally more of this stuff than Wizard subclasses do (although spells more than make up for it).

 

[Neonchameleon]

Okay. That's not D&D. I'm not going to argue the merits of that game with you; it doesn't sound like my cup of tea, but it's your game and more power to you.

D&D is a game that makes claims, both explicit and implicit, that characters of the same level should be roughly evenly balanced.

It also (as I think we agree) is a game where high level wizards are way more flexible than low level. Should it be this way? Because fundamentally the issue is that the non-casters just do not work in two out of four tiers of the game and struggle badly in the top half of tier 2.

Most of this conversation is about super high level characters

This conversation is best illustrated by super high level characters. But the casters have pulled ahead in general by level 7 and there's clear water at level 9. That's two thirds of the published game that's unbalanced.