Marvel vs DC

[Eric V]

Face value has little to do with it. That is what the plot of The Dark Knight is about:

Batman has reduced crime severely at the start of TDK. The criminal underworld, or what remains of it, cowers in fear. Bruce Wayne realizes Batman may no longer be needed, and he is looking for Harvey Dent to step in, so he can retire. That is when the Joker steps in and confronts the gangs of Gotham during their group therapy session with Lou, warning them that Lou is untrustworthy and not as untouchable as they think. Because as he points out, Batman has no need for jurisdiction, he can get to anyone anywhere. This turns out to be true, because Batman flies to China and delivers Lou on Gotham's doorstep. With Harvey stepping up, Bruce is ready to retire the cowl.

And then the plot of the Dark Knight Rises:

Bruce IS retired as Batman, and severely out of shape. That is literally how the movie starts. Gotham no longer needs Batman. Batman is now a wanted criminal, and Dent is a hero, all based on a lie.

Now, whether any of this is realistic is besides the point. This is a fictional city, set in a fictional universe, obeying by laws that make the superhero the good guy and not the villain. In Batman's Gotham, Batman makes a difference and reduces crime. And he does so effectively in the Nolan movies.

In real life, a person like Bruce Wayne could probably dramatically reduce poverty, and thereby reduce crime. But in his own universe, the real issue in Gotham is crime and corruption. Gotham needs Batman, and Batman eventually is able to reduce crime to the point where he is no longer needed.

This demonstrates one of the things I loved about the Batman as delivered by Nolan: He's not psychotically obsessed with an unrealistic, never-ending mission. He's one of the most emotionally and mentally healthy versions of the character we've ever seen, willing to take a chance on happiness like his parents would have wanted. A welcome change from "It's a life I would not wish on anyone."

 

[Imaculata]

This demonstrates one of the things I loved about the Batman as delivered by Nolan: He's not psychotically obsessed with an unrealistic, never-ending mission. He's one of the most emotionally and mentally healthy versions of the character we've ever seen, willing to take a chance on happiness like his parents would have wanted. A welcome change from "It's a life I would not wish on anyone."

Indeed. And unlike other portrayals of Batman, we also finally see his crime fighting take a toll on him. The Bruce Wayne we see at the start of The Dark Knight Rises is not just out of shape, but also suffering severely from all the injuries he's sustained over the years. Bane is already a formidable foe, but Bruce has not donned the cowl for so long, that he does not stand a chance against him. TDKR is all about Bruce wanting to stop being Batman. He longs for a time when Gotham no longer needs him, and at the start of the movie, he hasn't been Batman for quite a while. The movie is basically about a superhero being dragged out of retirement.

 

[nevin]

Yeah, it is just weird that time travel, interdimensional travel, and basically all sorts of other crazy stuff gets accomplished but curing AIDS? Nah.

Not really aids research opened up the cell. Billions of dollars later we can clone life have started to experiment on artificial wombs, have DNA altering treatments for a few disorders and we still dont have a cure for AIDS, or the common cold for that matter. But all the research for aids has dramatically advanced what we can do at a cellular level. While conversly space travel isnt much different that in the 60's

 

[Imaculata]

And just because you can build an Ironman suit, does not mean you can cure AIDS. Someone like Tony Stark can of course invest a lot of his money in medical research, but success is by no means guaranteed.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Gotham needs Batman, and Batman eventually is able to reduce crime to the point where he is no longer needed.

Except all he has done is broken the current organized crime organizations, and he explicitly doesn’t think Gotham will not need Batman again.

I’m not interested in continuing this discussion further. Y’all clearly have an attachment to a trilogy I see as fairly middling in quality, and agree with Nolan that his ideas make some amount of sense. We aren’t going to reconcile our views on the “Nolanverse”.

IMO they do a poor job of actually showing Batman enacting a rational and believable strategy to reduce crime in Gotham and genuinely making life better there long term. You aren’t going to change my mind by pointing out that the films yell “we did the thing” at the audience and expect the audience to just accept it as true.

 

[nevin]

And, of course, Reed Richards can cure the average alien-introduced plague, functioning as it doe in a way completely novel to all known medical science, in an afternoon.

Yeah but Reed Richards and all the genius heroes are playing whack a mole protecing the universe from villains

 

[Imaculata]

Y’all clearly have an attachment to a trilogy I see as fairly middling in quality, and agree with Nolan that his ideas make some amount of sense.

As much attachment as I have to any movie. I own the movies on DVD, but I don't watch them that often. I did see them all at the cinema and enjoyed them a lot when they came out. But I've never read a Batman comic in my entire life, and haven't watched all of Nolan's films. I like Nolan as a director, but that's about it.

You aren’t going to change my mind by pointing out that the films yell “we did the thing” at the audience and expect the audience to just accept it as true.

Well lets be reasonable here, how else do you want the movies to show that Batman is making a difference? There's dialog where Bruce explicitly says Gotham needs a different hero in the clip I linked earlier. Plus Gotham looks visually very different and less grim in The Dark Knight than in Batman Begins. And we are shown Harvey Dent bringing a ton of criminals to justice all at once, after Batman turned in Lou. So we are told visually and in dialog that Batman has pretty much succeeded at his mission. What else do you want?

I don't understand why you are so unwilling to change your position on this.

 

[ART!]

I thought Busiek and Perez's JLA-Avengers did a beautiful job of comparing and contrasting the two, at least back when it was written and before.

The DC heroes are more consistently looked up to in there world, shape it more, and often outclass their opponents by more.

The differences are microscopic now compared to the 1960s though.
opponents by more.

JL/A also points out that DC Earth is slightly larger than Marvel Earth.

they eventually had so many independent international spy agencies running around that they had a mini Crisis on Infinite Earths to pare them down.

COIE has almost if not absolutely nothing to do with international spy agencies.

I mean, Clark saves those kids in the bus as well as all those oil workers from the flaming platform. I totally get the criticisms of the last fight, but people forget the earlier stuff.

I think the complaint is he does no rescues or those kinds of heroics in costume, as Superman. I think there's one soldier he whooshes out of the way of gunfire in Smallville.

Sure. The Snyder Superman is very clearly not the Clark of the comics. Snyder either completely fails to understand who Clark is, or is too far up his own vision of reinventing the characters to just make a good Superman movie.

I think Snyder basically doesn't like Superman as-is, thinks he's corny, and sees him as other. There's a lot of xenophobia in Snyder's work.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I don't understand why you are so unwilling to change your position on this.

Why would I, when you’ve produced no evidence or argument I find compelling?

It’s not like my position is “Nolan’s Batman didn’t do the thing at all, and is just like the comics”. Rather it’s quite specifically, as I stated explicitly in my first post on the subject, that they didn’t do it particularly well, and that there isn’t a clear through line of Bruce devising and executing a cohesive plan, making life better as a result, and then moving on (either to help other places or from hero work).

Nolan showed Bruce retiring, and he’s a healthier person than animated Batman (great show, but it has some failures wrt Bruce as a character), but otherwise I don’t think it did what I want from a Batman particularly well.

I think Snyder basically doesn't like Superman as-is, thinks he's corny, and sees him as other. There's a lot of xenophobia in Snyder's work.

That’s a fair criticism, for sure.

 

[Eric V]

And just because you can build an Ironman suit, does not mean you can cure AIDS. Someone like Tony Stark can of course invest a lot of his money in medical research, but success is by no means guaranteed.

Tony, I get not being in his wheelhouse. Reed and Hank, though...