Mass Arrow Fire?
- Thread starter Wolffenjugend
- Start date
How about:
- determine a 'basic' unit size, for the attackers
- each attack by a 'unit' automatically hits the ground area targeted (optionally roll to hit area)
- this triggers a REF save of DC10 (or whatever number you feel appropriate)
- each multiple of the 'unit' firing into the same area increase the REF DC value (ie... +1, +2, +5 or what ever you feel appropriate).
- Targeted characters make a standard REF save adding armour modifiers, subtracting for possible encumberances or terrain penalties etc.
This way if 10 archers fire on heavily armoured characters, there is relatively little chance of seriously hitting any of them, but if lets say 5000 archers fire on the same group, they will be hit multiple times.
Damage could also be applied based on multiples of units firing, ie.. 1 unit does 1x normal damage, additional multiples increase the modifier. (possibly the severity of the damage could also relate to how badly they failed the REF save)
- determine a 'basic' unit size, for the attackers
- each attack by a 'unit' automatically hits the ground area targeted (optionally roll to hit area)
- this triggers a REF save of DC10 (or whatever number you feel appropriate)
- each multiple of the 'unit' firing into the same area increase the REF DC value (ie... +1, +2, +5 or what ever you feel appropriate).
- Targeted characters make a standard REF save adding armour modifiers, subtracting for possible encumberances or terrain penalties etc.
This way if 10 archers fire on heavily armoured characters, there is relatively little chance of seriously hitting any of them, but if lets say 5000 archers fire on the same group, they will be hit multiple times.
Damage could also be applied based on multiples of units firing, ie.. 1 unit does 1x normal damage, additional multiples increase the modifier. (possibly the severity of the damage could also relate to how badly they failed the REF save)
Last edited:
Wolffenjugend
First Post
Here's how it works in Complete Warrior.
Group of archers fires at target area equal in size to their own area. Full-round action. Single attack role by the commander of the archers using only BAB, Int mod, and range modifier. Concealment and cover do not apply (unless target has a roof overhead). If successful, arrows land in area and any target in a square must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or suffer damage (Str does not apply to this indirect fire).
My impression? What a load of crap. First off, no AC is given. What's the target AC?!?!?! Second, the archers must hit AND the target gets a save. Third, damage is minimized b/c Str doesn't apply. Fourth, full-round action means 1 shot per round. Fifth, the ability of the archers (i.e. level) means nothing as the leader is making the roll. Sixth, a person can only be hit by one arrow (if the areas are the same). Basically, the only advantage is cover and concealment are negated. Big wow.
Those are some pretty garbage rules. I mean, it doesn't even look like they put any effort into it and thought it through.
Group of archers fires at target area equal in size to their own area. Full-round action. Single attack role by the commander of the archers using only BAB, Int mod, and range modifier. Concealment and cover do not apply (unless target has a roof overhead). If successful, arrows land in area and any target in a square must make a Reflex save (DC 15) or suffer damage (Str does not apply to this indirect fire).
My impression? What a load of crap. First off, no AC is given. What's the target AC?!?!?! Second, the archers must hit AND the target gets a save. Third, damage is minimized b/c Str doesn't apply. Fourth, full-round action means 1 shot per round. Fifth, the ability of the archers (i.e. level) means nothing as the leader is making the roll. Sixth, a person can only be hit by one arrow (if the areas are the same). Basically, the only advantage is cover and concealment are negated. Big wow.
Those are some pretty garbage rules. I mean, it doesn't even look like they put any effort into it and thought it through.
Wolffenjugend said:
What peeves me is how the rules are handled differently for what is basically the same effect. The rules for the various "fusillade" traps (i.e. fusillade of darts, fusillade of spears, etc.) in the 3.5 DMG involve an attack bonus for the projectiles vs. the ACs of those victims caught in the trap's area of effect (which is 10' x 10', with each victim receiving a number of projectiles equal to the roll of a d6 or a d8). Here, at least, the victim's armor and shield make a big difference. So, shouldn't targets caught in a shower of arrows fired indirectly use similar rules?
LazarusLong42
First Post
OK, so, given the CW rules are Completely Weird, I'll go for a different set of rules:
(1) The entire band of archers fires at an area which must be contiguous and not jerrymandered--i.e. either a square, rectangle, or "circle"--the last as defined in DnD rules normally.
(2) Treat the entire attack as if it were an area of effect spell, but with damage dependent partially on AC. So:
For every 20 archers in the band, there are 21-AC+AB hits, as Vanalon stated above. One of those hits is a critical threat, but for ease of calculation we're going to assume that the high angle of the arrow volley means no criticals are going to happen.
Because the archers are targeting an area--rather than a creature--they have a 50% miss chance, as if the creature were invisible. Because it's a volley, we'll assume 50% of those do in fact hit their marks.
Also, the total area targeted makes a difference. The same amount of potential damage will occur, but it'll be spread out much more.
So, the final damage formula is:
Each person caught in the area of effect takes [(# of archers)/(40*# of targeted squares)][21-AC-AB][damage dice].
Examples:
A party of four adventurers, walking 2x2, are targeted by 100 orc mooks (AB = +1) wielding regular ol' longbows. Each person takes damage equal to:
100(22-AC)/(40*4) * d8
The rogue, with AC twenty, takes 1.25d8; round down, he takes 1d8 damage.
The wizard, with AC a whopping 14, takes 5d8.
Now, if the same adventurers were spread out, each walking 10 feet away from the others, the damage is:
100(22-AC)/(40*9) * d8
And the wizard takes only 2d8 damage (rounded down from (20/9)d8, whereas the rogue takes no effective damage.
Strength bows allow the arrows to travel faster going up, so they sure as heck would do more damage coming down, and that damage can be added on.
Finally, a large creature occupies four squares (10x10) and thus takes four times as much damage as his comrades.
So... in summary:
(1) How many archers are shooting? Call this number "A";
(2) What's their AB? Call this number "B". (Don't forget range penalties!);
(3) How many 5x5 squares are in the target area? Call this number "S";
(4) For each person in the target area, damage = [A*(21+B-AC)/(40*S)]*(d8 + strength)
(1) The entire band of archers fires at an area which must be contiguous and not jerrymandered--i.e. either a square, rectangle, or "circle"--the last as defined in DnD rules normally.
(2) Treat the entire attack as if it were an area of effect spell, but with damage dependent partially on AC. So:
For every 20 archers in the band, there are 21-AC+AB hits, as Vanalon stated above. One of those hits is a critical threat, but for ease of calculation we're going to assume that the high angle of the arrow volley means no criticals are going to happen.
Because the archers are targeting an area--rather than a creature--they have a 50% miss chance, as if the creature were invisible. Because it's a volley, we'll assume 50% of those do in fact hit their marks.
Also, the total area targeted makes a difference. The same amount of potential damage will occur, but it'll be spread out much more.
So, the final damage formula is:
Each person caught in the area of effect takes [(# of archers)/(40*# of targeted squares)][21-AC-AB][damage dice].
Examples:
A party of four adventurers, walking 2x2, are targeted by 100 orc mooks (AB = +1) wielding regular ol' longbows. Each person takes damage equal to:
100(22-AC)/(40*4) * d8
The rogue, with AC twenty, takes 1.25d8; round down, he takes 1d8 damage.
The wizard, with AC a whopping 14, takes 5d8.
Now, if the same adventurers were spread out, each walking 10 feet away from the others, the damage is:
100(22-AC)/(40*9) * d8
And the wizard takes only 2d8 damage (rounded down from (20/9)d8, whereas the rogue takes no effective damage.
Strength bows allow the arrows to travel faster going up, so they sure as heck would do more damage coming down, and that damage can be added on.
Finally, a large creature occupies four squares (10x10) and thus takes four times as much damage as his comrades.
So... in summary:
(1) How many archers are shooting? Call this number "A";
(2) What's their AB? Call this number "B". (Don't forget range penalties!);
(3) How many 5x5 squares are in the target area? Call this number "S";
(4) For each person in the target area, damage = [A*(21+B-AC)/(40*S)]*(d8 + strength)
Jeff Wilder
First Post
Put me in the (apparently small) camp of those who don't think the "Reflex save" massed volley rules are terrible. In fact, I like them for their simplicity.
Volleying archers aren't targeting individual foes. Essentially, they're simply creating a "rain of arrows."
In D&D, saving throws (as passive) are distinguished from other types of active rolls. Avoiding an essentially random rain of arrows -- like avoiding a landslide -- is exactly what a Reflex save is designed for.
That said, I do agree that it doesn't match the mechanic for some projectile traps published. But to the extent that the two types of projectile fire can't be distinguished -- ballistic versus flat trajectory, force versus gravity, and so on -- the problem IMO is with those traps, not with the mechanic for massed arrow fire.
Speaking as a DM, I appreciate the simplicity, as I've said. Speaking as a player, I'd much much rather be on the "wrong" side of these quick and useful rules than deal with a DM who spends 15 minutes or more making sure the volley of arrows matches both his definition of "realism" and his definition of "proper D&D mechanics."
Volleying archers aren't targeting individual foes. Essentially, they're simply creating a "rain of arrows."
In D&D, saving throws (as passive) are distinguished from other types of active rolls. Avoiding an essentially random rain of arrows -- like avoiding a landslide -- is exactly what a Reflex save is designed for.
That said, I do agree that it doesn't match the mechanic for some projectile traps published. But to the extent that the two types of projectile fire can't be distinguished -- ballistic versus flat trajectory, force versus gravity, and so on -- the problem IMO is with those traps, not with the mechanic for massed arrow fire.
Speaking as a DM, I appreciate the simplicity, as I've said. Speaking as a player, I'd much much rather be on the "wrong" side of these quick and useful rules than deal with a DM who spends 15 minutes or more making sure the volley of arrows matches both his definition of "realism" and his definition of "proper D&D mechanics."
likuidice
First Post
star wars d20 handles it thusly: one guy is designated as the shooter, and some of his buddies use the aid another action to help him out, each buddy giving the shooter a +2 to his roll, simply sort the orcs into groups of 10, or 5 etc, and roll for each group with appropriate modifiers.
cybernetic
Explorer
Why not instead of just using a reflex save make it a reflex save with armor giving a bonus equal to its armor bonus and/or magical enhancement bonus....that would allow dextrous rogues with little to no armor and head-to-toe iron clad fighter on about the same footing
This bit may belong in the house rules section, but when someone strikes a friend with an arrow by accident (such as trying to shoot past them and missing because of cover), I roll an attack at +10 vs. the targets flat-footed AC to determine if the arrow does any damage or just bounces off the armor. For mass combat, I would just decide how many arrows contact each PC and make an attack at +10 (in this case I would give them dex bonus, since they would be trying to avoid them). For normal density or arrows, I'd say each PC has a 50% chance per round of being contacted. I'd make this less for sporatic arrow fire, and upt to 1 or 2 per round for particularly concentrated fire. Not perfect, but simple; and it works out to the desired result of encouraging PCs to take cover without being overly deadly or requiring too many rolls. It does make PCs with an AC of 30 or more pretty much immune to arrows in mass combat, but these guys can shrug off a lot already.
